Rule of Engagement

[SolkaTruesilver]

I just realised something.

In DITL's YATI section of this episode, it notes that the Klingon consider killing innocent civilians in battle to be perfectly acceptable. Yet, they still insist on extradition of Worf for political reason, for purely political reasons.

I just realised that the morality of this episode if doubly screwed-up. Starfleet is defending Worf against the extradition. Yet, if we believe Sisko, firing without identification of the target is unacceptable under ANY circumstances while there could be civilian ships in the area. So.. Starfleet defended Worf even tho, in Starfleet's opinion, he was in the wrong. They did so for purely political reasons.

You end up with both sides acting with pure hypocrisy. I don't know if I should find it funny or sad..

[Deepcrush]

The point was that the Klingon Empire blamed Worf for targeting the ship with the intent of killing civilians. Then brought it to court to try and make the Federation look bad for their actions. Remember that when the Klingon lawyer found out he'd been lied to, he went after the High Council in response.

It was more a public relations action then one of right or wrong in time of war.

[Captain Seafort]

I just realised that the morality of this episode if doubly screwed-up. Starfleet is defending Worf against the extradition. Yet, if we believe Sisko, firing without identification of the target is unacceptable under ANY circumstances while there could be civilian ships in the area. So.. Starfleet defended Worf even tho, in Starfleet's opinion, he was in the wrong. They did so for purely political reasons.

Quite apart from the obvious stupidity of haranguing someone for opening fire on a ship decloaking in front of you in the middle of a battle, when you're on the only friendly ship equipped with a cloak, I don't see anything in Sisko's little speech to suggest that Starfleet, collectively, considers Worf actions to be a serious offence - if it did then that battle would have seriously buggered up his career, certainly far to badly for Sisko to predict him getting a Captaincy in the same speech.

There's certainly hypocrisy in spades, but it's from Benjamin "Chemical Ali" Sisko, not Starfleet as a whole.

You end up with both sides acting with pure hypocrisy. I don't know if I should find it funny or sad..

It's neither - it's politics.

[Graham Kennedy]

I thought Worf was dead in the wrong for what he did; he didn't check his target before firing on it. I've no idea what typical wartime rules of engagement are, but I'm willing to bet that "fire blindly at a target the instant it presents itself" isn't part of them.

But that said, from a legal point of view Worf is entitled to a vigorous defence, innocent or guilty.

[Deepcrush]

Shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more then let sort it out if you're not to tired from all the shooting.

[Captain Seafort]

I thought Worf was dead in the wrong for what he did; he didn't check his target before firing on it. I've no idea what typical wartime rules of engagement are, but I'm willing to bet that "fire blindly at a target the instant it presents itself" isn't part of them.

It depends on the situation. If it's a patrol (or even a firefight) in an Afghan village, then sure, the bloke in question should make sure the head that pops up from a window is trouble rather than a civvie.

If it's a WW2 convoy battle then any sub detected can be assumed to be hostile and engaged.

Worf's battle was a thinly-disguised repeat of the latter scenario.

[Mark]

It seemed plain to me that the Klingons were attempting to use Federation ideals against them. So what the Klingons consider civillians fair targets. They KNEW Starfleet and the Fed didn't, and thus found the best way to embarrass Starfleet and to take revenge on Worf.

A manipulation job worth of the Romulans or Cardassians.

[Deepcrush]

Minus it failed when the Klingon Lawyer found out he'd been tricked and then went after the Klingon Council for it.

[Captain Seafort]

A manipulation job worth of the Romulans or Cardassians.

Or of the TOS Klingons for that matter. It always struck me as odd that the Klingon and Romulan roles get reversed in TNG (at least nominally). The Klingons started spouting off about honour left right and centre and the Romulans became nasty sneaky bastards.

CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.
CENTURION: If we are the strong, isn't this the signal for war?
COMMANDER: Must it always be so? How many comrades have we lost in this way?
CENTURION: Our portion, Commander, is obedience.
COMMANDER: Obedience. Duty. Death and more death. Soon even enough for the Praetor's taste. Centurion, I find myself wishing for destruction before we can return. Worry not. Like you, I am too well-trained in my duty to permit it. Continue evasive manoeuvres. Now, back to the first course.
...

KIRK: Captain. Standing by to beam your survivors aboard our ship. Prepare to abandon your vessel.
COMMANDER: No. No, that is not our way. I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend.
KIRK: What purpose will it serve to die?
COMMANDER: We are creatures of duty, Captain. I have lived my life by it. Just one more duty to perform.

That isn't one of the nasty sneaky bastards.

[Deepcrush]

I think I would have happily served under that Romulan Commander.

[Captain Seafort]

Indeed, and I can't think of a better adversary in all of Trek. He wasn't an enemy, merely an opponent, a professional naval officer doing his job just as Kirk was doing his. Trek, and sci-fi in general, needs more characters like him.

[Deepcrush]

True, when I think of able commanders for Trek. The Romulan Commander has always come second right behind Kirk.

Kirk, RSE Commander (ToS - Balance of Terror), Nechayev, Jellico, Martok, Ross, Sisko. All seemed to have a firm grasp on the situations on hand, and if they didn't they fought to find someone who could in their place.

[Mark]

I think I would have happily served under that Romulan Commander.

I've always thought of him as the exception to the "Romulan" rule. We've seen brave and benevolant Ferengi, insane Vulcans, cowardly Klingons, so an honerable Romulan is hardly a stretch.

[Deepcrush]

I think I would have happily served under that Romulan Commander.

I've always thought of him as the exception to the "Romulan" rule. We've seen brave and benevolant Ferengi, insane Vulcans, cowardly Klingons, so an honerable Romulan is hardly a stretch.

This is a fair point, we don't really have a great deal of interaction with the RSE during TOS do we.

[Picard]

That isn't one of the nasty sneaky bastards.

I always thought that Romulan low-level commanders (starship captains etc) are nasty sneaky bastards beacouse they are told to act that way by government, and are actually, as people, honorable. Thought definition of "honor" may vary.