Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

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Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Sonic Glitch »

Read and decide for yourself I guess? Supposedly writing has been found identifying it to belong to a "(J)esu(s) Nazerine" (Jesus of Nazareth) in Greek, Hebrew and Latin.

Source
Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
AP

FILE - In this Aug. 12, 2000 file photo, The Holy Shroud, a 14 foot-long linen AP - FILE - In this Aug. 12, 2000 file photo, The Holy Shroud, a 14 foot-long linen revered by some as the

* Shroud of Turin Slideshow:Shroud of Turin

By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer Ariel David, Associated Press Writer - 1 hr 9 mins ago

ROME - A Vatican researcher has rekindled the age-old debate over the Shroud of Turin, saying that faint writing on the linen proves it was the burial cloth of Jesus.

Experts say the historian may be reading too much into the markings, and they stand by carbon-dating that points to the shroud being a medieval forgery.

Barbara Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, says in a new book that she used computer-enhanced images of the shroud to decipher faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the cloth.

She asserts that the words include the name "(J)esu(s) Nazarene" - or Jesus of Nazareth - in Greek. That, she said, proves the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have mentioned Jesus without referring to his divinity. Failing to do so would risk being branded a heretic.

"Even someone intent on forging a relic would have had all the reasons to place the signs of divinity on this object," Frale said Friday. "Had we found 'Christ' or the 'Son of God' we could have considered it a hoax, or a devotional inscription."

The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping from his hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen's fibers at the time of his resurrection.

The fragile artifact, owned by the Vatican, is kept locked in a protective chamber in a Turin cathedral and is rarely shown. Measuring 13 feet (four meters) long and three feet (one meter) wide, the shroud has suffered severe damage through the centuries, including from fire.

The Catholic Church makes no claims about the cloth's authenticity, but says it is a powerful symbol of Christ's suffering.

There has been strong debate about it in the scientific community.

Skeptics point out that radiocarbon dating conducted on the cloth in 1988 determined it was made in the 13th or 14th century.

But Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos National Laboratory said in 2005 that the tested threads came from patches used to repair the shroud after a fire. Rogers, who died shortly after publishing his findings, calculated it is 1,300 to 3,000 years old and could easily date from Jesus' era.

Another study, by the Hebrew University, concluded that pollen and plant images on the shroud showed it originated in the area around Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.

While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them, due to the results of the radiocarbon dating test, Frale told The Associated Press.

But when she cut out the words from enhanced photos of the shroud and showed them to experts, they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century - Jesus' time.

She believes the text was written on a document by a clerk and glued to the shroud over the face so the body could be identified by relatives and buried properly. Metals in the ink used at the time may have allowed the writing to transfer to the linen, Frale said.

She said she counted at least 11 words in her study of enhanced images produced by French scientists in a 1994 study. The words are fragmented and scattered on and around the image's head, crisscrossing the cloth vertically and horizontally.

One short sequence of Aramaic letters has not been fully translated. Another fragment in Greek - "iber" - may refer to Emperor Tiberius, who reigned at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, Frale said.

She said the text also partially confirms the Gospels' account of Jesus' final moments. A fragment in Greek that can be read as "removed at the ninth hour" may refer to Christ's time of death reported in the holy texts, she said.

In her book "The Shroud of Jesus Nazarene," published in Italian, Frale reconstructs from the lettering on the shroud what she believes Jesus' death certificate said: "Jesus Nazarene. Found (guilty of inciting the people to revolt). Put to death in the year 16 of Tiberius. Taken down at the ninth hour."

She said the text then stipulates the body will returned to relatives after a year.

Frale said her research was done without the support of the Vatican.

"I tried to be objective and leave religious issues aside," Frale told the AP. "What I studied was an ancient document that certifies the execution of a man, in a specific time and place."

Frale's work usually focuses on medieval documents. She is noted for research on the order of the Knights Templar and her discovery of unpublished documents on the group in the Vatican's archives.

Earlier this year, she published a study saying the Templars once had the shroud in their possession. That raised eyebrows because the order was abolished in the early 14th century and the shroud is first recorded in history around 1360 in the hands of a French knight.

Her latest book on the shroud raised even more doubts among some experts.

On one hand, it is true that a medieval forger would label the object with Christ's name, as were all relics produced at the time, said Antonio Lombatti, a church historian who has written about the shroud. The problem is that there are no inscriptions to be seen in the first place.

"People work on grainy photos and think they see things," Lombatti told the AP. "It's all the result of imagination and computer software. ... If you look at a photo of the shroud, there's a lot of contrast between light and dark, but there are no letters."

Further criticizing Frale's work, Lombatti said that artifacts bearing Greek and Aramaic texts were found in Jewish burials from the first century, but the use of Latin is unheard of.

He also rejected the idea that authorities would officially return the body of a crucified man to relatives after filling out some paperwork. Victims of that form of execution used by the Romans would usually be left on the cross or were disposed of in a dump to add to its deterrent.

Lombatti said "the message was that you won't even have a tomb to cry over."

Another shroud expert, Gian Marco Rinaldi, said that even scientists who believe in the relic's authenticity have dismissed as unreliable the images on which Frale's study was based.

"These computer enhancements increase contrast in an unrealistic way to bring out these signs," he said. "You can find them all over the shroud, not just near the head, and then with a bit of imagination, you see letters."

Unusual sightings in the shroud are common and are often proved false, said Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia. He recently led a team of experts that reproduced the shroud using materials and methods available in the 14th century - proof, they said, that it could have been made by a human hand in the Middle Ages.

Decades ago, entire studies were published on coins purportedly seen on Jesus' closed eyes, but when high-definition images were taken during a 2002 restoration, the artifacts were nowhere to be seen and the theory was dropped, Garlaschelli said.

He said any theory about ink and metals would have to be checked by analysis of the shroud itself.

The last public display of the shroud was in 2000, when more than 1 million people turned up to see it. The next is scheduled for 2010, and Pope Benedict XVI has been asked to visit it.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by stitch626 »

So they think that it is actually his burial cloth.

So what?
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Aaron »

Hasn't this been discredited via carbon dating yonks ago? IIRC it was dated at around 1350 or so.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Aaron »

stitch626 wrote:So they think that it is actually his burial cloth.

So what?
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Nickswitz »

Yeah, that's the only effect I can really see it having...
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Aaron »

Nickswitz wrote:Yeah, that's the only effect I can really see it having...
Funny thing is the Pope could probably sell one of the Vatican's couches and pay down the national debt of Australia.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Tyyr »

If I recall isn't it not even the right configuration of an Hebrew burial shroud of that time period?
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by IanKennedy »

Yes, it was shown to be a fake in the 1980s, it dates from the 1300s. Even the catholic Church doesn't claim it to be real now, they just say that it's a 'potent symbol of christs suffering'. It even says both of these things in the article above. I don't see how it having lettering on it makes any difference. We know that this is a fake so it just makes the lettering another part of the fake, so what. I'm sure next they'll find a name tag sewn into it saying 'Property of jesus christ, if lost please return to ..."
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Carbon dating proves it to be of the wrong time period.
Jesus' face would not appear like it's a photograph if the shroud was draped over his face.
Church officials initialy declared it a forgery when it was first presented to them.
The pigment on the shroud was shown to most likely be paint.
Scientists reproduced the forgery using Medieval methods, showing it could be forged rather easily.
There was a Biblical-scale flood of hoax religious artifacts around the same time that the shroud was "found" (there are enough Splinters Of The True Cross to make 3.5 crosses now, and let's not even get into the wacky stuff like Jesus' foreskin).
Tests have shown that the shroud was artificialy aged through dyes.
The head and hands are disproportionate to the rest of the body.
The images on the front and back are not to the same proportions.
The blood on the shroud is of a type that did not exist at the time.
The Jesus displayed had not been burried in the correct Jewish method of the time - his hair should have been shaved.
The shroud itself was woven in a manner that was inconsistant with 1st century practicies, but perfectly normal for the Medieval era.
And just to cap it all off, the guy who forged the shroud confessed to doing so when confronted by the priest he sold it to.

Seriously, I've lost count of how many times this thing has been discredited. Even if there are words on it, it means absolutely nothing other than the forger was thorough.

For those interested, I'd suggest picking up Inquest on the Shroud of Turin by Joe Nickel.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Tsukiyumi »

I was kinda pissed when they "debunked" it; I had an idea for a story about scientists trying to clone Jesus from the DNA on the shroud, and creating a horrifying monster instead. That one had potential, dammit! :lol:
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Monroe »

Just have the scientist find the spear of destiny or whatever its called. Then you could have your arm of Jesuses.

I think Rochey summed it up pretty good. Its such an obvious fake I can't believe a million people went to see it in 2000.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Mikey »

I don't understand why anyone would think that the writing could be as much a fake as the veracity of the shroud itself.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Exactly. The only thing they have is "well, they didn't reffer to Jesus as being divine". All that means is that it was a particularly well done forgery. Which we already know.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by SuperSaiyaMan12 »

I thought the Carbon Dating was in dispute due to a fire in the 1300's which could have damaged the Shroud.
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Re: Shroud of Turin -- The Real Deal?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

There are claims that the shroud was damaged and then repaired in a fire, and that every single bit of the shroud that was carbon dated happened to be the bits that were replaced. I put little stock in that excuse.
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