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No, mu opinion hasn't changed - I can respect your ability to argue even if your arguments disagree with mine (read: "wrong." )

I don't believe that Janeway had an easy "go home button," nor do I think that she was in an indefinitely tenable position. However, I will believe, unpopularly, that in that particular situation, a captain's responsibility to her crew outweighs upholding every little philosophical ideal of Starfleet's motto.

Remember she wasn't faced with the destruction of her ship and crew. They were just fine. Just on the wrong side of the galaxy.

Additionally it seems like while they couldn't get remotely real time communications going they should be able to get info back to starfleet via strong subspace signals (it'd just take quite a while to actually reach starfleet).

And while a long trip they could eventually get back by even conventional means (not that she ever thought she'd be limited to that). But they'd be doing what the the ship was built for and what Janeway was trained and indoctrinated to do, explore and contact new cultures, the whole way.

That's contrasted against trying to use a damaged array they don't really know how to work all while under fire, throwing in the risk of destruction for the ship via malfuctions or Kazons and also adding in the possible destruction of the Ocampa.

I don't accept a 70-year, perilous journey as simply "being able to get home."

Mikey wrote:I don't accept a 70-year, perilous journey as simply "being able to get home."

I think his point is that people are getting too carried away acting like Janeway "sacrificed" her crew based on "every small detail of Starfleet policy." Which is hardly the case... her crew was alive, her crew did get home, albeit not as "quickly or smartly" as the "Battle Barge Captains" would approve of, but nonetheless.

Duskofdead wrote:I think his point is that people are getting too carried away acting like Janeway "sacrificed" her crew based on "every small detail of Starfleet policy." Which is hardly the case... her crew was alive, her crew did get home, albeit not as "quickly or smartly" as the "Battle Barge Captains" would approve of, but nonetheless.

They got home despite Janeway's leadership, not because of it - she nearly got the entire crew killed through her own stupidity or arrogance several times.

to be honest...so she decided to save millions instead of get 150 odd home quicker....what would I do? I would do what Janeway did. simple as that.

I'd like to think that I would too - but in actuality, it's a much harder choice when it's POSSIBLY millions of unknown races vs. YOUR OWN crew.

Mikey wrote:I'd like to think that I would too - but in actuality, it's a much harder choice when it's POSSIBLY millions of unknown races vs. YOUR OWN crew.

Does it matter if it's possibly your crew vs the aliens? Does it matter if you're quite confident your crew will survive the encounter if you save the aliens (just blowing the array and bugging out), but you aren't so sure about survival at all if you risk screwing them? (trying to fight off the Kazon for a few hours and then see what happens when you try to use the now heavily damaged array.)

.....

Hey! wait a minute! Getting pulled in messed them up bad didn't it? They took heavy damage and something like half the crew died. And that was when the caretaker was running the thing AND the array was undamaged AND voyager was in full working order.

So your options are. Take a risk of losing your ship totally to the kazon, risk screwing the ocampa, risk totally blowing yourself up when the damaged array tries to transport you, and if everything works right you kill half your crew?

That doesn't sound like a very good deal at all!

But getting stranded is tantamount to non-survival. Betting on a deus ex machina or some "fate points" isn't even a factor in this equation.

Mikey wrote:But getting stranded is tantamount to non-survival. Betting on a deus ex machina or some "fate points" isn't even a factor in this equation.

Not really. Wormholes, subspace corridors, powers that can hurtle you hundreds of light years etc etc are known things in the trek universe.

Also I'm not even sure I wouldn't rather spend the rest of my life on Voyager as opposed to having a 50% chance(from the transport process itself) or worse(from array damage, Kazon, warp core breach) of dying right then.

I mean the thing has holodecks. Women. Food. Sure I have the chance of getting eaten by a giant space amoeba, but it isn't like you wouldn't have the same risks back home.

Yeah I think I'd take the ship.

sunnyside wrote:Not really. Wormholes, subspace corridors, powers that can hurtle you hundreds of light years etc etc are known things in the trek universe.

"Can" being the operative word. The alternative is spending over seven decades trapped on that ship. Chances are you'll die there, without every seeing your friends or familly again. Against the near-guarantee of that, you've got the possibility of being killed on the return trip, which should be a lot less dangerous now that the rough ride is known about and can be prepared for.

Captain Seafort wrote:

sunnyside wrote:Not really. Wormholes, subspace corridors, powers that can hurtle you hundreds of light years etc etc are known things in the trek universe.

"Can" being the operative word. The alternative is spending over seven decades trapped on that ship. Chances are you'll die there, without every seeing your friends or familly again. Against the near-guarantee of that, you've got the possibility of being killed on the return trip, which should be a lot less dangerous now that the rough ride is known about and can be prepared for.

My point exactly, but better worded. The actuality of there being a wormhole, corridor, or something similar close enough to your path to be useful depends on the "hand of fate" (read: writers) putting it there.

captain's responsibility to her crew outweighs upholding every little philosophical ideal of Starfleet's motto

Hate to say it, but I agree.

However, was it possible for the Captain to use the array. When it was damaged by the out-of-control Kazon ship, the Caretaker could not send them back. And it did not seem that they could study the technology with the Kazon breathing down their necks. Feel free to correct me if my presumption is wrong.

Thanks! But why do you hate to say it?

And to reiterate Seafort - they didn't know how long Kazon reinforcements would be, nor the state or the operation of the array. Saying "the Kazon definitely would have come to stop them" is as unfounded as saying "the Kazon definitely WOULDN'T be there to stop them."

Well the Kazon had a definite presence in the area. At some point they would get enough ships in the area to beat voyager. It's simply a question of how long that would take compared to how long it would take the program to initiate.

But I doubt they'd have time for an extended futz to really figure the technology out. And while I don't remember the exact time frame of the episode I don't think they'd have time yet to fix things like hull breaches. Likely force fields were holding the air in.

And again who knows how badly the array was damage. Though I would think the self destruct system would have been one of the harder systems to knock out.

And again you can lead a pretty full life on an intrepid. Get married. Have kids.

Heh. Alternate timeline.

Voyager: The Next Generation