What if? II

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:56 pm

I wouldn't tell the US to abandon states but i would leave behind all those useless nations that wait for US troops to fight and die for them.

But the situation isn't analogous to someone invading the planet. It's analogous to someone invading the US. So should they US abandon states to move more troops in to protect Washington DC? If so, why?

In war time trade takes a back seat. It sucks but so be it.

Of course is does, but you still need to move supplies from one world to another to keep their economies going, and to keep building starships.

If those other worlds side with the K/R forces then good for them, they'll live.

And you'll lose any hope of winning the war. Their industrial capacity and resources would be use against you, and there'd be plenty of people who're angry enough at Starfleet for abandoning them to start fighting alongside the Alliance.

As to the Roms, they've shown that they would prefer to aviod direct combat with an enemies home world, or fleet in general.

They were more than willing to bomb the Founder's homeworld, and fight against their fleets during the war. They prefer cloak-and-dagger tactics, definately, but they'd still attack. And there doesn't even need to be a large battle. Simply besieging the Sol system would have mostly the same effect on the UFP.

The klingons wouldn't be able to out number the whole of starfleet just because they won the war.

They would if you abandon the resources and manufacturing facilities and manpower of your own colonies. They'd be stripped of anything usefull, and used to build new ships to use against Starfleet. Earth's shipyards can't match all that.

By the end of the war starfleet was still counting victories under its belt.

So? By the end of the war Nazi Germany was still getting minor victories. It doesn't change the fact that they were eventualy defeated. The same will happen here, particularly if you abandon everything to defend Earth.

Starfleet was building starships without trade to begin with so why not now.

I'm not talking about trading with the Romulans, Klingons, etc. I'm talking about trade between member world of the Federation, eg Earth and some other planet in the UFP. Earth's economy would crash catastrophicaly if all imports and exports were suddenly cut off, and Starfleet wouldn't have the resources to replace losses faster than the Alliance can build new ships.

Holding up and drawing your enemy into a battle on your home terf is a sound plan, force them to come to you and face them with everything you have left.

It's not a sound plan when you have nowhere left to retreat to. Starfleet would have their backs to the wall at Earth, and be fighting a hopeless battle. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the captains defected to save themselves and their crews.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:59 pm

Winning isn't the point, no one here has even thought about if the feds could win, you counted them out right from the get go. And that was the right thing to do, but now you make up reasons for starfleet to continue fighting a lost war in a way that would just speed their defeat and that boys is just a stupid thing to do.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:01 pm

Winning isn't the point, no one here has even thought about if the feds could win, you counted them out right from the get go. And that was the right thing to do, but now you make up reasons for starfleet to continue fighting a lost war in a way that would just speed their defeat and that boys is just a stupid thing to do.

In a war, winning is always the point. We know that the Feds haven't a chance, but they probably don't. And even so, retreating all forces to Earth is still totaly unfeasable. You'd be pretty much just handing the enemy your territory. And you may not even be able to cause any damage to the Alliance's fleets. All they have to do is keep the Sol system blockaded, and keep building up their forces.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:43 am

I'll have to disagree that winning is always the point in war. Sometimes when there is no hope for one to win their aim is to maintain all they can of their way of life.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:10 am

Rochey wrote:
Winning isn't the point, no one here has even thought about if the feds could win, you counted them out right from the get go. And that was the right thing to do, but now you make up reasons for starfleet to continue fighting a lost war in a way that would just speed their defeat and that boys is just a stupid thing to do.
In a war, winning is always the point. We know that the Feds haven't a chance, but they probably don't. And even so, retreating all forces to Earth is still totaly unfeasable. You'd be pretty much just handing the enemy your territory. And you may not even be able to cause any damage to the Alliance's fleets. All they have to do is keep the Sol system blockaded, and keep building up their forces.

How is winning a war that you just said you can't win the point of the war? That makes no sense. Sometimes its not about winning but keeping your enemy from winning. If forming a defensive fleet around your best planet and drawing your enemy to battle isn't a plan you like then tell us one.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:22 am

Deepcrush wrote:How is winning a war that you just said you can't win the point of the war? That makes no sense. Sometimes its not about winning but keeping your enemy from winning. If forming a defensive fleet around your best planet and drawing your enemy to battle isn't a plan you like then tell us one.

The point of war is to enforce your political will on your opponent - if you are unable to do that, then the fighting becomes pointless. Continuing to fight when clearly outmatched is done for one of two reasons - to hold on for as long as possible in the hope of gaining allies, or as in this case the enemy coalition falling apart, or out of sheer bloody-mindedness. In either case, unneccessarily abandoning most of your industrial base in order to shorten your line is stupid - it hands the enemy a tremendous strategic advantage and significantly reduces your future capacity for resistance.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:53 am

The point of war is to enforce your political will on your opponent

No. War has many causes, politics being but one of them.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:23 pm

There may be may additional elements but at its most fundamental level war is the continuation of policy by other means - to force an opponent to do something they would not otherwise have done, or not do something they would otherwise have done, through the use of armed force.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:33 pm

I don't want to forget about all those useful worlds, though some of the others are just a waste as they do nothing for the UFP. What I would want to do is to pull my remaining forces into a tight group and force my enemy to commit to a massive final battle. The Romulans don't like that style of war, they are willing to fight in such battles but they prefer more sidetrack combat. The Klingons have admitted that they would be worried about luanching an attack on earth. Regroup and attack in mass and force a battle that neither side would want nor expect. All those worlds will have to fight on their own for a little while as the UFP gets the offensive under way. Staying your ground just for that sake of staying there is a fools game. You are already lossing a war, your space is getting smaller by the day, so is your fleet. Your worlds are to spread out to be protected. Your best bet is to act in a way that would not be normal. Pull back, feint a retreat then lash out at the klingon forces. Put them off balance and retake the worlds you left only a week or so ago. Stretch out their lines and then attack before they can take hold of any gains. If you knock the Klingons down, even for a short while the Romulans would be more likely to tighten their grip on what they have so far gained and would go on the defensive. It took the Sisko to convince the Romulans to commit to an attack against the dominion. We all know the Romulans distain for attacking. Their whole dominion war plan was to just lock up the borders. They tried to get everyone to agree to this several times. If the klingons halt then so will the Romulans.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:17 pm

I don't want to forget about all those useful worlds, though some of the others are just a waste as they do nothing for the UFP.

What do you mean by 'don't do anything'? Do you mean that they don't contribute militarily? Maybe not, but they do contribute resources, money, manpower, and plenty of other things.

What I would want to do is to pull my remaining forces into a tight group and force my enemy to commit to a massive final battle.

Except they wouldn't need to. By pulling back to such a limited position and abandoning most of your worlds, the economies of the planets you are would fall like a brick. There'd be chaos, and most likely shortages of resources and food as all imports are cut off. All the Aliance needs to do, is blockade the system and wait.

Regroup and attack in mass and force a battle that neither side would want nor expect.

And one which, due to the loss of resources, your lack of backup or withdrawel positions, and the serious moral blow your forces would have taken, is highly unlikely to succed. Unless you launch such an attack almost immediately, your enemy will be twice the size of your own fleet by that time.

All those worlds will have to fight on their own for a little while as the UFP gets the offensive under way.

All those worlds would surrender faster than a French soldier at the sight of a German marching band once they were abandoned. I can assure you that they ain't gonna keep fighting for a government which abandoned them.

Staying your ground just for that sake of staying there is a fools game.

Of course it is. But giving up all your assets is even more foolish.

You are already lossing a war, your space is getting smaller by the day, so is your fleet.

Yes, it is. And if you're dead set on making the enemy pay for every foot of ground he takes, you do it through a war of attrition. Not by pulling everything back to one location.

Put them off balance and retake the worlds you left only a week or so ago.

These world are hardly going to welcome you back with open arms. And the Alliance will make you pay dearly for every planet you take. And your super-fleet can only be in one place at a time. When you move this fleet to Bajor, or whereever, the Alliance can just waltz in and level Earth.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:59 am

Is there not an drop of free thought left in here? OMFG! Why would those worlds have to surrender if they know you are coming back! If earth was such an easy target then someone would have taken it out already! The 'super fleet' as you put it is to make launch back into enemy space. If the K/R fleets are winning as they would be I still don't see double the Fed fleet. If the Rom's had that size of a fleet they wouldn't be hidding in shadows. They would be openly attacking like people here seem to think they would, dispite all cannon to the other hand. Though in the end maybe you need a different messege. These other UFP worlds are about as helpful in war as most of the UN or NATO. I still haven't seen anyone one else show an idea for such a war, i'm guessing we have only french generals here as the whole war plan is to just LOSE, then pray for mercy. If someone has a better idea then lets hear it. There's been alot of blah blah with nothing to support it. Some worlds will have to hold out on their own for a while. Tough S***! Deal with it, fight your way through it and hold on until help arrives. This is an American tactic true enough but it seems to work well enough since we've only lost one war in our history, soon to be two with iraq but look who's running us!

Over all though be it shortened battle plan.

1. Pull back to regroup in Sol Sector with the systems defenses making it a nice safe haven for a little while.

2. The Klingons would be happy to see a pull out and would strike out at every world they could! Those space vikings are nice like that.

3. Take the regrouped fleet and bypass the Klingons and head straight for the homeworld. If half of your whole fleet is still around then that would be more then enough to take Qonos out of the war!

4. Return to the defensive! Spread the fleet out! Hit and runs with as many raids as you can form! If the enemy moves anywhere then it will have to be as a fleet. Then strike behind the lines. Hit colonies, shipyards, convoys and transports.

5. By this point you should have brought your surviving fleet home and now gone on the "Hold the Line" plan. Now is when you fight for every inch like you have no tomorrow.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:02 am

"Bypass the Klingons?" Once you remove defensive capability from Earth, the Klingons (and Romulans, if they're still involved) will do one of two things:

a) concentrate on the now poorly-defended Earth and crush it; or,

b) regroup themselves, disable a/o tie up your fleet and then (see "a" above.)

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:11 am

Deepcrush wrote:1. Pull back to regroup in Sol Sector with the systems defenses making it a nice safe haven for a little while.

And allow the Klingon-Romulan alliance to build up their fleet using the resources of your worlds while your fleet falls into disrepair and suffers manpower shortages.

2. The Klingons would be happy to see a pull out and would strike out at every world they could! Those space vikings are nice like that.

Or they'd do as they did in "What You Leave Behind" and concentrate all available forces for a final battle in the Terran System. The Klingons were always the ones most keen about accepting Sisko's advice to keep pressing forwards.

3. Take the regrouped fleet and bypass the Klingons and head straight for the homeworld. If half of your whole fleet is still around then that would be more then enough to take Qonos out of the war!

Assuming that they haven't attacked and taken Earth by this stage, this plan relies on the Klingons ignoring a massive fleet heading through their territory, and having no reserves whatsoever to counter such a move. Even if their reserves aren't strong enough to defeat your fleet, they will force it to drop out of warp to engage, allowing the rest of their forces to concentrate.

4. Return to the defensive! Spread the fleet out! Hit and runs with as many raids as you can form! If the enemy moves anywhere then it will have to be as a fleet. Then strike behind the lines. Hit colonies, shipyards, convoys and transports.

The Klingons would be able to pull this off - the Federation can't. Their fleet is built around much larger ships, with the Excelsior being the smallest truely effective warship. They aren't manoueverable enough or numerous enough to be used as raiders the way the BoPs are.

5. By this point you should have brought your surviving fleet home and now gone on the "Hold the Line" plan. Now is when you fight for every inch like you have no tomorrow.

Except that Earth has likely fallen while you were off on your joyride to Quonos, your fleet has been massively attrited by the operation, and you've been completely ignoring the Romulans. Even if this lunacy works, you'll have struck a major blow against the Klingons only for their pointy-eared neighbours to come in and finish you off at much less of a risk to themselves.

A much better approach would be to adopt a flexible defence in depth, using relatively small forces to maintain the line, while holding substantial forces in reserve. If faced with a major offensive you fall back, enticing the enemy to overextend their lines of communication, and then counterattack on the backhand to envelop them with superior forces. Above all, hold your initial line as far forward as possible, but don't flinch at trading space for time at an operational level, and don't fight battles you can't win.

This won't allow you to win the war - the combined strength of the Klingon and Romulan Empires is too great, but you might be able to force a draw, and maintain the Federation even if it will only be a second-rate power.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:46 pm

Why would those worlds have to surrender if they know you are coming back!

Because they're now completely defenceless, and will either surreneder or get pounded into dust by the enemy.

If earth was such an easy target then someone would have taken it out already!

That says more about the inteligence of the Feds enemies, than Earth's defences. We've seen several times that Earth has little or no dedicated defences.

The 'super fleet' as you put it is to make launch back into enemy space.

Too bad that the enemy fleet will now be larger than you're super fleet, as you have now handed a massive amount of resources to them for free.

If the K/R fleets are winning as they would be I still don't see double the Fed fleet.

Maybe not double, but they'd still vastly outnumber the super fleet.

They would be openly attacking like people here seem to think they would, dispite all cannon to the other hand.

Why do you keep insisting that the Rommulans will not engage in open warfare? We've seen it happen, ergo it is canon.

These other UFP worlds are about as helpful in war as most of the UN or NATO.

In military terms. In every other way, they are still incredibly valuable, as I haev shown several times.

Some worlds will have to hold out on their own for a while.

With no orbital support and ground troops that Rommel could massacre? I doubt it.

This is an American tactic true enough but it seems to work well enough since we've only lost one war in our history, soon to be two with iraq but look who's running us!

Yes, because that's all to do with tactics, and not liitle things like economics, industrial strength, population, technology, etc.

1. Pull back to regroup in Sol Sector with the systems defenses making it a nice safe haven for a little while.

Fine. While Earth is now a fortress, you've handed your enemies a massive amount of resources, and probably gained the hatred of most of the populations of the worlds you abandoned.

2. The Klingons would be happy to see a pull out and would strike out at every world they could! Those space vikings are nice like that.

Or they'd concentrate their forces for a strike against the UFP capital, like they did in What you leave behind.

3. Take the regrouped fleet and bypass the Klingons and head straight for the homeworld. If half of your whole fleet is still around then that would be more then enough to take Qonos out of the war!

1: Earth is now truly screwed, and you have lost any hope of prolonging the war.
2: The Klingons are bound to spot this fleet.
3: Its likely they'd have some sort of reserve force guarding their borders.
4: If this attack succeds, the KE would simply anhialate Earth, and most other UFP planets in revenge.
Congratulations; the human race is now extinct.

4. Return to the defensive! Spread the fleet out! Hit and runs with as many raids as you can form! If the enemy moves anywhere then it will have to be as a fleet. Then strike behind the lines. Hit colonies, shipyards, convoys and transports.

How will they keep supplying these ships? Why would the crews keep fighting? How would you stop whatever's left of your fleet from the attack on Q'ou'nos from being anhialated by returning Klingon forces? How will ships that simply aren't built for these types of mission be able to carry out these orders effectively?

5. By this point you should have brought your surviving fleet home and now gone on the "Hold the Line" plan. Now is when you fight for every inch like you have no tomorrow.

How will you get the shattred remnants of your fleet (assuming there's anything left) past the massive wall of Klingons that will be heading towards you?

I still haven't seen anyone one else show an idea for such a war, i'm guessing we have only french generals here as the whole war plan is to just LOSE, then pray for mercy. If someone has a better idea then lets hear it.

Fine, here's my own idea:

1: Screw the Romulans, put cloaks into mass production.
2: Build proper warships.
3: Set up construction yards in hidden or difficult to reach locations.
4: Genesis devices. Lots of them.

Simply put, force your enemies into a war of attrition, making them pay dearly for every inch they try to gain. Cloaked ships equiped with Genesis devices would make the perfect weapon, and may even force your enemy into a ceasefire if you blow up enough of their planets. With proper warships, Starfleet may be able to hold off the superior numbers of the Alliance. Set up defensive stations over planets, and build ground to space torpedo launchers and phasers on important planets.
The Alliance will probably still be able to win through superior numbers, which is when you turn to guerilla tactics. Have stockpiles of genesis torps and powerfull ships with cloaks hidden somewhere (Briar patch?), then set them lose on the Klingon and Romulan planets until they run out of genesis torps, or are destroyed. If you still have ships left, continue with guerilla campaigns untill you're eventually destroyed.

Starfleet is in a pretty much hopeless situation, but using these tactics they could turn it into a pyrhic victory for the Klingons and the Romulans.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:35 pm

I like your idea but the war is already ending. The feds have lost half of there fleet and the bulk of fed space is under enemy control or fighting to stop such. Plans like this would need to be put in place from the start. Which is where I think we should be looking to right now. The feds out populate both the Klingons and Romulans so there is hope. The fed will have to gear itself for war right off the bat, again something they can't do if the UFP is ready to surrender in only 6 months.

It bothers me that the feds wouldn't be putting up more of a fight. I know that its cannon that the UFP act only in the most stupid of ways but still it just bothers me. I think that if we want to have a truly fair understanding of the war we would have to start thinking about how it was at the very beginning. Who's up for that idea?