What if? II

[Teaos]

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daybody=/ ... .php?TNG99

The Duras sisters win the civil war. Gowron is killed and his forces are integrated into the new Klingon empire.

Immediate results would be probable war for the Federation.

The Klingons and Romulans would have an alliance which is bad news for the Feds but weather that alliance would last is debatable.

Long term effects could be the fall of the Federation but it would also leave the Alpha quadrant open to attack from the Dominion IF the wormhole is found.

I doubt the Federation could win that war. In the alternate future we see the Klingons manage to almost beat the Feds by themselves. With the Romulans aid it would be pretty one sided.

[Enkidu]

While the Federation would be weakened by a major war, it would also lead to a thinning of the herd of the older fed starships, and move Starfleet towards design and full speed production of more martial designs a few years sooner.
I don't think it is a given that the Federation would lose. There is a tendency to underestimate the resolve and military potential of peace loving democracies (though it is not clear if the Federation is a democracy) in situations where their arse is on the line.
If the Federation was in a war, or recovering from one, it might have delayed contact the Dominion. The question would be, after meeting the Dominion, if a more powerful Starfleet could beat them without Klingon allies and having to keep an eye on the Klingons/Romulans, and enough forces in reserve to deter an attack.

[Captain Seafort]

At the time of "Redemption" Starfleet was still under strength as a result of Wolf 359 - it was one reason Picard had problems getting his tachyon net squadron together. Given that after a 20-year war Stafleet was on the brink of defeat to the Klingons ("Yesterday's Enterprise"), indicating that their industrial strengths are roughly equal, a Federation victory against a Klingon/Romulan alliance would b so unlikely as to be ignored as a serious possibility.

[Enkidu]

For some reason the BBC hasn't shown "Yesterdays Enterprise" in their late night run of repeats currently airing. I was looking forward to seeing it again after many years - I remember it been one of the better episodes. However, a problem I had with it was I don't believe a ship like the fatboy Galaxy would have been designed by an organization in a long term war, though for TV production purposes there wasn't really any choice.
My knowledge of DS9 is incomplete - I missed the middle seasons - but wasn't there a major battle between the Feds and Klingons where the Feds won?
The size of the fleet in DS9 seems a lot bigger than it is in TNG. The fleet of thousands of vessels in DS9 could sustain the loss of the Wolf 359 ships without major difficultly. With the ongoing nature of Star Trek many such inconsistencies get thrown up.
I have far more time for the Federation than many fans, so I am biased, but I still think Starfleet is 'arder than many believe.

[Sionnach Glic]

My money's on the Klingons and Romulans. Klingons know a bit more about combat than the Feds', and the Romulans are more than willing to use tactics the Federation would deem unthinkable (orbital bombardment of civilian areas, genocide, etc).
The Feds' appear to have a slight tech advantage, but outgunned and outnumbered (and probably out thought) they'd have no chance, which is the situation they'd be in.
The Klingons on their own were able to drive the Federation to the brink of defeat in a paralel universe, and there's not much to suggest that things are that much different in the real universe.
One on one with the Klingons, I'd give Starfleet the benefit of the doubt, but I doubt they'd have much success with the Rommies' backing the Klingons.

So;
Tech: Slight advantage to the Feds'.
Industrial capacity: Klingons/Romulans.
Numbers: Klingons/Romulans.
Tactics: Probably the Klingons and the Rommies again.

My conclusion is that the war would drag on for quite a while (maybe even a decade or so), before the Feds fall.

[Mikey]

I agree that the inclusion of the Rommies against the UFP would certainly add a great deal of weight to the K-R Alliance; however, knowing the Romulans as we do, is there any guarantee that they would continue to support the Klingon Empire, rather than just a faction in its civil war? If I were writing the Romulans, I would guess that once Duras was established, the Romulans would sit and watch the Klingons and Feds duke it out, and then swoop in to take out the much-depleted "victor."

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, that's quite possible. I was just thinking of it more from a 'what happens if X and Y go to war with Z' scenario, like we had before.

[Mikey]

In that case, I'm afraid there wouldn't be too much to tell about the Klingon-Romulan victory over the Federation. There is no clear superiority in industrial capability (MAYBE the Klingons have a slight edge,) no huge advantage in tech or firepower - the Feds probably have a slight advantage, but not enough to compensate for the greater initial numbers, tactics, and warlike tendencies of the Klingons and Romulans.

[Sionnach Glic]

There is no clear superiority in industrial capability (MAYBE the Klingons have a slight edge,)

No, we have no concrete numbers there. But the Klingons in Yesterday's Enterprise were quite capable of keeping a war going for twenty years, with the Feds' about to be defeated, that would indicate a rough parity. Add in the Romulans, and the Feds' are outmatched by quite a bit.

no huge advantage in tech or firepower - the Feds probably have a slight advantage, but not enough to compensate for the greater initial numbers, tactics, and warlike tendencies of the Klingons and Romulans.

Weapons power seems to be roughly equal. I'd imagine the Feds' have a slight advantage in overall tech, but the fact that they have simply no idea how to run a war would pretty much negate this, as would the numerical advantage the K/R would probably have.

[Captain Peabody]

Yeah...I think I'd agree with the consensus opinion here that this would mean basically the defeat if not destruction of the Federation. They just don't have the ships or resources to deal with both the Klingons and the Romulans... In the short term, this would mean a good deal of instability in the Quadrant as the powers try to snatch up as much of the Federation as they can.

In the long term, when the Dominion arrive, they come upon a quadrant in chaos...and without the Federation to lead the Alliance against them, they conquer the Alpha Quadrant. The End...

[Mikey]

That seems to be about the size of it.

[Captain Seafort]

In the long term, when the Dominion arrive, they come upon a quadrant in chaos...and without the Federation to lead the Alliance against them, they conquer the Alpha Quadrant. The End...

The other side of the coin is whether the wormhole would be discovered at all, since it was only Sisko's curiosity that led to its discovery, and most ships deliberately avoided the Denorious Belt.

[Teaos]

The Romulans would continue to support the Klingons for awhile so that they could get rid of the their enemy the Federation. It is an alliance of convenience which they need, After that I imagin it would break apart.

[Captain Peabody]

The other side of the coin is whether the wormhole would be discovered at all, since it was only Sisko's curiosity that led to its discovery, and most ships deliberately avoided the Denorious Belt.

Well, the DS9 writers had the idea that the Dominion had known about the Federation for quite some time...and that it was just biding its time. The discovery of the wormhole, however, skewed up their plans, and so they were forced to begin their assault before they were really ready. Make of that what you will...

[Teaos]

I think what they ment was that the Dominion was aware of them as soon as the wormhole opened but not before. They then waited awhile after they were in the GQ to attack so that they had some information on them.