Voyager gets a new captain.....

[Captain Seafort]

No, he was sent to J25 and IIRC started trying to get home. Haven't seen that ep in a while, so I can't be sure. If he did pull a "Janeway" in that situation, then he deserves to be pilloried for it too. Just because he did it doesn't make it OK for her.

No, he decided to do a bit of exploring before heading back. The key differences were that a) he wasn't directly responsible for stranding the crew, b) his intention seemed simply to make a quick run around the neighbourhood and the set off home, and c) he was looking at a less than three-year trip, rather than a multi-decade journey.

[Duskofdead]

No, he was sent to J25 and IIRC started trying to get home. Haven't seen that ep in a while, so I can't be sure. If he did pull a "Janeway" in that situation, then he deserves to be pilloried for it too. Just because he did it doesn't make it OK for her.

All he had to do was ask Q for help. Q was being petulant and trying to teach Picard some humility (as well as, presumably, warning him in advance about the Borg------ or flinging the Federation to the wolves by alerting the Borg to Federation existence, that one is entirely up for argument). If accepting Q's help had meant leaving a civilization to be destroyed then the situation would have been more parallel to Voyager in "Caretaker", but Picard refused the quick way home pretty much until some of his crew had already been killed and the ship was about to be destroyed, more or less because of stubborn pride.

Is that not WORSE than Janeway?

[kostmayer]

I still can't decide wether it was Q flinging the Enterprise into their encouter with the Borg instigated their invasion, or if they would have anyway.

The Borg had already attacked several Romualan and Federation colonies. At the end of Q Who, Guinan did make it sound like the Borg would be coming for them after encoutering the Enterprise. And Janeway did sarcasitally thank Q for introducing the Federation to the Borg in Death Wish.

However, Q also claimed that without him the Borg would have destroyed the Federation - if he's referring to the Federation having advanced warning of the Borg due to the Enterprises encouter, it didn't seem to do the Federation much good.

[Aaron]

The ENT Borg episode makes it clear that the Borg would be aware of the Federation by TNG, thanks to them sending a message before getting shot down.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

No, he was sent to J25 and IIRC started trying to get home. Haven't seen that ep in a while, so I can't be sure. If he did pull a "Janeway" in that situation, then he deserves to be pilloried for it too. Just because he did it doesn't make it OK for her.

No, he decided to do a bit of exploring before heading back. The key differences were that a) he wasn't directly responsible for stranding the crew, b) his intention seemed simply to make a quick run around the neighbourhood and the set off home, and c) he was looking at a less than three-year trip, rather than a multi-decade journey.

And he had Q right there who would send him back if he asked.

[Mikey]

Is that not WORSE than Janeway?

No, it's not, because he didn't get his own ship stuck out there in the first place due to lack of common sense.

[Duskofdead]

Is that not WORSE than Janeway?

No, it's not, because he didn't get his own ship stuck out there in the first place due to lack of common sense.

Huh what? Mouthing off to Q wasn't a total lack of common sense?

[Mikey]

Could you have predicted that reaction from Q? Janeway's case did not involve any kind of near-omnipotent entity with whom she couldn't treat - it was a simple case of a knee-jerk reaction and forgetting what Seafort has reminded us of so often: TIMERS.

[Duskofdead]

Could you have predicted that reaction from Q? Janeway's case did not involve any kind of near-omnipotent entity with whom she couldn't treat - it was a simple case of a knee-jerk reaction and forgetting what Seafort has reminded us of so often: TIMERS.

Everytime I bring this up it is always totally ignored. Did you not happen to notice Voyager had been damaged, Chakotay's ship had been destroyed, the Kazon were attacking and hellbent on boarding the array, and the program to go home would have taken several hours?

I'm seriously starting to think people are just ignoring it because it is a rather large hole in their argument that Janeway had every option at her disposal and simply made a really stupid one. But that isn't what happened.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Could you have predicted that reaction from Q? Janeway's case did not involve any kind of near-omnipotent entity with whom she couldn't treat - it was a simple case of a knee-jerk reaction and forgetting what Seafort has reminded us of so often: TIMERS.

Everytime I bring this up it is always totally ignored. Did you not happen to notice Voyager had been damaged, Chakotay's ship had been destroyed, the Kazon were attacking and hellbent on boarding the array, and the program to go home would have taken several hours?

I'm seriously starting to think people are just ignoring it because it is a rather large hole in their argument that Janeway had every option at her disposal and simply made a really stupid one. But that isn't what happened.

That happens a lot. Don't worry, in a few months you won't even notice them doing it anymore.

[sunnyside]

I'm with Dusk they were trying to show that Voyager was in a losing battle. In principle they could have tried to work out some deal with the Kazon but I don't know that the Kazon would have been up for sharing.

They also might have been able to try and do some more threatening of the caretaker early on or something. But again the thing was dying anyway and therefore threats might not have carried all that much weight.


Regardless Duskofdead one thing you need to realize about a number of members here is that that their views of a number of the members here run closer to the Mirror Universe than the federation.

And on that note remember that if Starfleet wanted a bunch of people to stay home they wouldn't have had to have built a ship like Voyager. They could have just had everyone stay home! Starfleet built that thing to explore. Even the Kennedies agree with me on that one if you poke around the intrepid section. Certainly you have to admit that it's definining characteristic was speed and that it's military might left something to be desired even for a ship of that size.

So it would make sense that a captain of such a ship would be selected to have an explorers mentality.

Also while the crew wanted to get home. Again, they were a starfleet ship sent out there to explore. And Im sure that Starfleet is glad they didn't have a more focused commender in charge due to all the goodies they got or found out about.

And again that exploring tendency is what got them most of their speed boosts home.

My guess? If a military commander was put in charge the end result would be that Species 8472 cleans out our Galaxy barring interferance from Q's/travelers etc.

[Duskofdead]

I'm with Dusk they were trying to show that Voyager was in a losing battle. In principle they could have tried to work out some deal with the Kazon but I don't know that the Kazon would have been up for sharing.

They also might have been able to try and do some more threatening of the caretaker early on or something. But again the thing was dying anyway and therefore threats might not have carried all that much weight.


Regardless Duskofdead one thing you need to realize about a number of members here is that that their views of a number of the members here run closer to the Mirror Universe than the federation.

And on that note remember that if Starfleet wanted a bunch of people to stay home they wouldn't have had to have built a ship like Voyager. They could have just had everyone stay home! Starfleet built that thing to explore. Even the Kennedies agree with me on that one if you poke around the intrepid section. Certainly you have to admit that it's definining characteristic was speed and that it's military might left something to be desired even for a ship of that size.

So it would make sense that a captain of such a ship would be selected to have an explorers mentality.

Also while the crew wanted to get home. Again, they were a starfleet ship sent out there to explore. And Im sure that Starfleet is glad they didn't have a more focused commender in charge due to all the goodies they got or found out about.

And again that exploring tendency is what got them most of their speed boosts home.

My guess? If a military commander was put in charge the end result would be that Species 8472 cleans out our Galaxy barring interferance from Q's/travelers etc.

Well said. I pretty much agree with all of these observations. Especially the part about the way the episode portrayed the decision. I don't think the argument being put forth by the Anti-Janewayites has a leg to stand on unless the episode had included a line of dialogue like "We've driven the Kazon off, but they're probably bringing in reinforcements. We have just enough time to activate the program to return us to Federation space before they return."

The episode gave no indication Voyager had any such time or luxury. The decision appeared to be destroy the array, or back off in the hope of coming back later and negotiating or re-taking it from the kazon to use the technology to return home.

[sunnyside]

To be fair Tuvok said he could initiate a program to get them home. But also indicated that it would take several hourse for it to work. And that was before that large Kazon vessel plowed into the array. It sounds like after losing their big ship the Kazon may not have had a clear advantage but they said they had additional ships inbound which there is no reason to doubt.

So there is a chance Voyager might have been able to get home if they could first beat the other Kazon ships(if they could) and then complete the program before reinforcements arrived (if the array was still fully functional after the damage).

On the other hand there is the issue of what Starfleet would have wanted.

A. The ship to come straight back home

B. The ship, which was built for exploring, to stay and collect amazing amounts of new technology, knowledge, and "more first contacts than anybody since Kirk".

I'm guessing some federation psychoanalyst got a promotion after Voyager started sending data back.

[Mikey]

Everytime I bring this up it is always totally ignored. Did you not happen to notice Voyager had been damaged, Chakotay's ship had been destroyed, the Kazon were attacking and hellbent on boarding the array, and the program to go home would have taken several hours?

I'm seriously starting to think people are just ignoring it because it is a rather large hole in their argument that Janeway had every option at her disposal and simply made a really stupid one. But that isn't what happened.

Don't get your panties in a knot; I actually had though about how well-thought and -written your posts were, and that you were a welcome addition. Plus, now there's someone here more long-winded than me!

Now as far as the brass tacks of the matter - we're not talking about the normal opportunities which a Starfleet captain would be expected, or encouraged, to exploit. A captain's responsibility to her crew is greater than theirs to her, and when there's a simple thing like 70,000 LY or whatever-the-hell then there must be some ABSOLUTELY 110% DAMNED-SURE INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence that using timers and running the return program will not work.

[Duskofdead]

Everytime I bring this up it is always totally ignored. Did you not happen to notice Voyager had been damaged, Chakotay's ship had been destroyed, the Kazon were attacking and hellbent on boarding the array, and the program to go home would have taken several hours?

I'm seriously starting to think people are just ignoring it because it is a rather large hole in their argument that Janeway had every option at her disposal and simply made a really stupid one. But that isn't what happened.

Don't get your panties in a knot; I actually had though about how well-thought and -written your posts were, and that you were a welcome addition. Plus, now there's someone here more long-winded than me!

Now as far as the brass tacks of the matter - we're not talking about the normal opportunities which a Starfleet captain would be expected, or encouraged, to exploit. A captain's responsibility to her crew is greater than theirs to her, and when there's a simple thing like 70,000 LY or whatever-the-hell then there must be some ABSOLUTELY 110% DAMNED-SURE INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence that using timers and running the return program will not work.

Thanks for the kind words, I hope your opinion hasn't changed. You'll find that when I post it usually is fairly long-winded; if I have nothing worthwhile to say I'll typically say nothing (there are several threads I've read like the "What if the Dominion had an intelligent enemy" one and I just really have nothing to add), but if I do have something to say I've usually thought about it enough to require more than 2-3 sentences.

I agree with your assessment about captains and crews and the obligation therein. I just suspect some people haven't seen the Voyager premiere in a very long time, or at the very least had a very different impression of the sequence of events and the situation than I did. The issue of how they were going to use the array to get home with the Kazon bearing down on them and refusing to talk became moot when the array was destroyed, but nevertheless it is a big black eye in the idea that Janeway had a "go home button" she just had to press and she simply chose not to. Even when Seska and other crewmembers spoke about the incident later, the term they tended to use was "she destroyed our only way of getting home." Not "she could have gotten us home right then and didn't."