I believe what Tyyr is saying (or it may be just what I'm saying, but I feel it doesn't threaten his point) is that on an individual level, humans can be raised to be considerate, intelligent, etc but human nature has not, and will not change; merely our ability to give into or control that nature at any given point. The basic drives of humanity are still present.Nickswitz wrote:stitch626 wrote:Hmm, strange, I slow down to see if anyone needs help.The same impulse that drove people to watch the gladiatorial games in ancient Rome drives people to slow down when they see a car wreck.
I guess I'm weird.
Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...
SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
-
- Rear Admiral
- Posts: 6026
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:11 am
- Location: Any ol' place here on Earth or in space. You pick the century and I'll pick the spot
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
How about this, human nature is basically animalistic, kill or be killed, Law of Tooth and Claw. Is that it in a nutshell?
This of course does not take into account that billions of individuals consciously override this instinct every day. Just as Sonic points out.
The future of Star Trek just posits that humans are vastly better at constantly choosing to than we do today.
That is until their lives and more importantly their freedom is jeopardised, then the claws come out and the teeth are beared.
This of course does not take into account that billions of individuals consciously override this instinct every day. Just as Sonic points out.
The future of Star Trek just posits that humans are vastly better at constantly choosing to than we do today.
That is until their lives and more importantly their freedom is jeopardised, then the claws come out and the teeth are beared.
God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
.................................................Billy Currington
.................................................Billy Currington
-
- 3 Star Admiral
- Posts: 10654
- Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
- Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?Nickswitz wrote:Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Tyyr wrote:And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?Nickswitz wrote:Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...
Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. I'm almost always the only one that is trying to solve it..
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Thats USUALLY the most dangerous place to be ya knowNickswitz wrote:Tyyr wrote:And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?Nickswitz wrote:Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...
Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. I'm almost always the only one that is trying to solve it..
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
- Deepcrush
- 4 Star Admiral
- Posts: 18917
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
- Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Thats my job you're talking about.Mark wrote:Thats USUALLY the most dangerous place to be ya know
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
- Captain Seafort
- 4 Star Admiral
- Posts: 15548
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
- Location: Blighty
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Doesn't that rather prove his point?
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Thanks for making my point
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
- Deepcrush
- 4 Star Admiral
- Posts: 18917
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
- Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
-
- Lieutenant Commander
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:10 pm
- Location: Vienna
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Which I never opposed, just your notion that because humans on an individual level have not changed in the last odd 10k years it doesn't mean that society has not changed and evolved, which it has, regardless if you want to admit it or not.Tyyr wrote: I've continued to argue that humans today are no different from humans in the history and given that our basic natures have changed little in that time. You decided to start arguing that the society had evolved as opposed to just the people while I've continued to argue the original point that people are still just people.
What this means for the specific topic is that, even though the people of the Maquis are still mostly humans with all the instincts, emotions and whatnot they ever had, they also come from a society preaching the betterment of oneself and strange concepts of individual and equal rights etc which if you like it or not do influence how we behave on an individual level. For example, altough humans are still the same they were thousands of years ago just go around and treat women like in 1920 and see how society reacts to that by and large and then come back and tell my your female cooworkers and/or superiors did find your new macho-attidude so charming.... . (Assuming you live somewhere were females do enjoy the same rights as males, and not just in theory.)
Now add to that they are stranded away from home surrounded by hostile aliens and I find it far more unlikely that they choose the suicidal option taking on the deltaquadrant alone rather than cooperating with the only humans around, maybe former opponents, yet at least humans. (Oh...and they happen to have the only human-friendly long range ship around for the next few thousand lightyears.) So, yes they would exactly behave like in the show, they won't like it much but swallow their pride and go along to live another day.
As I said, a rather cynic view which I can assure you is not shared by everyone, but hey, if you are a hindu you got at least a second shoot, good luck.Tyyr wrote:Which has nothing to do with the basic point being that humans are still the massive collection of assholes we've always been.
Of course they are. Is there still a stalinist regime in the former udssr? Mao still alive? I never said that all is love and roses on the planet right now, some societies are ahead of others either economical, cultural or in the recognition of human rights, but there is a trend that things are getting better imho. And with they world being connected like never before there might be a huge opportunity that with time those things will permanently progress. (Sure, or it all might go down in ww3, but I do not see this as inevitable or even much likely).Tyyr wrote: And you have blatantly ignored the fact that of everything on that list the only one directly tied to WWII was the holocaust. You ignored the Stalinist regime, the Maoist regime, the Khmer rogue, Africa as a whole, etc. If you want to argue that WWII is an outlier then fine, go for it, now what's your explanation for the rest of the list? Are all of them outliers?
First it is YOU who missed the point, that deducing basic human behavior with a niche-sport is a pretty weak argument. Given the popularity of that sport I am sure for every fan I can give you 10 people who never heard of it, 20 who are appalled and disgusted and 40 who don't care.Tyyr wrote:And you've completely missed the point. I used MMA because it's a pretty easy analogy to make but the core issue is that we're still sick spectacle junkies. MMA, boxing, slowing down on the side of the road for a car wreck, going to a movie to watch someone gun down hundreds of people, or some girl get hacked apart. We still pay good money to watch bad things happen to other people for no good reason even if they are ultimately imaginary.
But for the sake of the argument, are you f****** seriously? A human enjoying a hack and slay movie is for you on the same level as an ancient human gladiator who actually might hack and slay someone apart for real? You know it actually does count VERY much if something is ultimately imaginary or not, because people not being able to differentiate are likely to be isolated for exactly that reason.
Having the option to satisfy those need for spectacle and entertainment without actually having to hurt someone is maybe not a perfect solution but it IS progress. Maybe not good enough for you but then I get the impression nothing ever will be.
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.
-
- 3 Star Admiral
- Posts: 13026
- Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:27 am
- Commendations: The Daystrom Award, Cochrane Medal of Excellence
- Location: New Hampshire
- Contact:
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
That was outright stated in TOS episode 'The Armageddon factor'. Kirk said that, yes, deep down they were animals. They could kill. They just chose not to kill today.Vic wrote:How about this, human nature is basically animalistic, kill or be killed, Law of Tooth and Claw. Is that it in a nutshell?
This of course does not take into account that billions of individuals consciously override this instinct every day. Just as Sonic points out.
The future of Star Trek just posits that humans are vastly better at constantly choosing to than we do today.
That is until their lives and more importantly their freedom is jeopardised, then the claws come out and the teeth are beared.
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
One of my favorite quotes is from the TAS, One of Our Planets is Missing. It includes the phrase, I will not kill today.
God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
.................................................Billy Currington
.................................................Billy Currington
-
- 3 Star Admiral
- Posts: 10654
- Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
- Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
I'll happily admit that it's changed, but it hasn't evolved in the sense you're suggesting.Atekimogus wrote:Which I never opposed, just your notion that because humans on an individual level have not changed in the last odd 10k years it doesn't mean that society has not changed and evolved, which it has, regardless if you want to admit it or not.
Well, first off even in wonderfully advanced western society there are plenty of men who still think that way and women who would agree. There's also an indeterminant number of people of both sexes who probably wouldn't protest that loudly even if things did roll back to the 1920's in regards to women's lib. That's in western society. In the other 85% of the world that goes from a minorty view point to the dominant one right now either enforced by tradition or actual law. Then again, fuck'em. They're not part of western society, they're outliers. Sure it's 85% of the world's population but hey, what's that matter?For example, altough humans are still the same they were thousands of years ago just go around and treat women like in 1920 and see how society reacts to that by and large and then come back and tell my your female cooworkers and/or superiors did find your new macho-attidude so charming.... . (Assuming you live somewhere were females do enjoy the same rights as males, and not just in theory.)
Except no one has suggested that a Maquis would strap symtex to their chest and bum rush the warp core. The disagreement is that you see a single memeber of the Maquis have any reaction at all to their destruction. At the very least there should be some hand wringing and emotional turmoil, some verbal lashing out, and yet none of the Maquis save Torres seem to have any reaction at all. Even if the bulk of the Maquis do go about their business like good little Starfleet drones we've already established before that some members of the Maquis were still rather insistent on still seeing themselves as Maqui before Starfleet before. Again, the fact that no one in the group seems to have made so much as a peep is just ridiculous.Now add to that they are stranded away from home surrounded by hostile aliens and I find it far more unlikely that they choose the suicidal option taking on the deltaquadrant alone rather than cooperating with the only humans around, maybe former opponents, yet at least humans. (Oh...and they happen to have the only human-friendly long range ship around for the next few thousand lightyears.) So, yes they would exactly behave like in the show, they won't like it much but swallow their pride and go along to live another day.
No, some people put on rose colored glasses, don't look past the ends of their noses, jam their fingers in their ears and scream, "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the top of their lungs. Doesn't make them right.As I said, a rather cynic view which I can assure you is not shared by everyone,
I think you should really rethink that statement. When I can name almost a dozen different instances of widespread, institutionalized, human against human brutality in the last 80 years that have accounted for the deaths over well over 100 million human beings and inflicted misery and suffering upon ten times that number I think we've moved from the realm of outliers that can be ignored to actual problems with integrating into a nice a rosy world outlook.Of course they are.
There was for about fifty years. Stalin died, it tends to happen with people, but the USSR soldiered on into the 1980s. What we've got now doesn't appear to be that much better, human rights wise.Is there still a stalinist regime in the former udssr?
No, Mao died. It happens. The wonderful country he helped found on the bodies of over 60 million of his own people is still around though. How'd Tiannemen square work out for the whole "evolved society," thing?Mao still alive?
Can you pay attention for half a second? In the very same paragraph I pointed out that my allusions to it were simply because it was a quick and dirty comparison, not that my arguement was based upon that.First it is YOU who missed the point, that deducing basic human behavior with a niche-sport is a pretty weak argument.
No I'm not fucking serious because I never said it was on the same level. I said it spoke to the same age old urges to see bad things happen to other people.But for the sake of the argument, are you f****** seriously? A human enjoying a hack and slay movie is for you on the same level as an ancient human gladiator who actually might hack and slay someone apart for real?
Not really. In the context of this argument either action, real or imaginary violence, speaks to satisfying the same basic urge that has been present since the dawn of humanity. Progress is not finding new ways to satisfy the urge. Progress would be eliminating it. If there was no market for spectaclized violence anymore I'd say there's been progress made. If there were more people looking to break up fights with Nick than watching them I might say some progress has been made. If people stopped to help at car wrecks instead of just slowing down hoping to see some blood I might say some progress has been made. That would be actual progress.You know it actually does count VERY much if something is ultimately imaginary or not,
...
Having the option to satisfy those need for spectacle and entertainment without actually having to hurt someone is maybe not a perfect solution but it IS progress.
No, actual progress would be good enough for me. Actually changing the way that people think and react would make an impression. Claiming that progress has been made by classifying 85% of humanity today, and a hundred years of world history outliers as well as just ignoring behaviors and trends present today does make an impression on me. Not a tremendously favorable one. I'm fine with optimism, I like optimists. I can't stand ones that don't know when to check the optimism at the door and deal with reality though.Maybe not good enough for you but then I get the impression nothing ever will be.
Anyways, I said my piece. Getting sick of arguing with a brick wall.
-
- 4 Star Admiral
- Posts: 21747
- Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:38 pm
- Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!
- Contact:
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Depending on the reason for the confrontation, I'd say that wouldn't be the good sort of progress. Nothing wrong with violence, as long as there's a good reason for it. IMO, of course.Tyyr wrote:...If there were more people looking to break up fights with Nick than watching them I might say some progress has been made...
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
- Deepcrush
- 4 Star Admiral
- Posts: 18917
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
- Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA
Re: SFDebris: Blaze of Glory
Violence, like many other actions, is an means to an end. Sometimes there are better choices, sometimes there are no other choices.
The Maquis felt they had no other choices. They acted to defend their homes, a very human action.
The Maquis felt they had no other choices. They acted to defend their homes, a very human action.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu