British Imperialism

[Bryan Moore]

May I ask people's opinions (Mostly Britons/Irish) on British imperialism and what they did to Ireland, Britain, West Indies. I saw it come up before (British/India).

I am fascinated with British military history, and find the issue of imperialism so complex, yet so interesting. Most of my family is Irish, came over in the late 19th century, largely to get out of the realm of British juristdiction. My academic hero, a professor from UConn with a doctoral dissertation on the British army and it's experiences in the West Indies, has written numerous books, both fiction and non-fiction about reaction to British subjugation. It is very easy to read in US history texts about breaking free from our imperial overlords.

A lot of it, I find to be poignant, and I certainly believe there were many crimes against inhabitants that cannot be justified. Yet I can't help but admire the British Empire for the positive things. I fully believe that much of what went on in India and the West Indies was inexcusable, and to a lesser extent, Ireland. (I am a HUGE admirer of Indian cultures) But I cannot, under ANY circumstance, think of the British as the "bad guys" in the American Revolution. In many ways, the colonies were insane to rebel, as they had it infinitely better in the colonies than any other British colony did, because of racial, cultural, and economic ties.

SO frustrating, the contradictions. Yet so fascinating. Opinions?

[celeritas]

yeah i always thought the american revolution was poorly justified. in my opinion, the british were perfectly justified in increasing taxes on the american colonies in order to pay for troops to defending the proclamation line from native american and/or french incursions. the whole revolutionary war just didn't seem properly justified in my mind. it felt like the whole thing could have been solved without a shot fired if they only had a telephone handy.

hong kong is my shining example of the good that the british empire can do. sure, the british basically extorted the territory from china, but the empire made hong kong better than imaginable for the economy, the culture, and people. when 1997 came, nobody said a bad word as the ol' brits left on their boat. ten years later and the people of hong kong are still nostalgic about how good it was back when the brits were in charge.

however, the empire has made mistakes -- the whole carving israel out of palestine opened quite a can of worms. in my opinion, the whole region should have stayed as the british mandate of palestine. in fact, i think the world might have been better if the empire hadn't been disassembled. however, the world changes and imperium sine fine is just a myth.

[I Am Spartacus]

Admiring the "good things" that have come out of imperialism is morally repugnant. The ends do not justify the means. No state has the right to commit genocide, invasion, annexation, or ethnic and cultural cleansing of another people, certainly not for little more than territorial conquest.

The British Empire was a global killing machine that would have given even Adolf Hitler an erection.

[Sionnach Glic]

The history of Ireland is full of instances of genocide, torture and opresion. They almost certainly did do some good, but not enough to justify it.
One need only look at what happened on Bloody Sunday to see inexcusable actions.

[Bryan Moore]

Yeah, the crushing of the Sepoy rebellion was every bit as bad. If anyone wants some interesting reading, though a tough find, "I, Hanuman" "Congo Jack" and "The Death and Life of an Irish Soldier" by Roger Buckley are all wonderful historical-fiction testaments against British imperialism. Quite impressive.

[Captain Seafort]

Admiring the "good things" that have come out of imperialism is morally repugnant.

Oh really? So would you consider that fact that modern India (for example) is a parliamentary democracy, in which the caste system, while not destroyed, is significantly weakened compare to pre-Raj India, and the custom of widow-burning is, while not eradicated, extremely rare, and a criminal offense, to be repugnant?

Would you consider the eradication of the West African slave trade by the Royal Navy in the 19th century to be repugnant?

Would you consider the Empire's stand against the Nazis from 22nd June 1940 to 22nd June 1941 to be repugnant?

The British Empire was a global killing machine that would have given even Adolf Hitler an erection.

Really? I don't recall the British Empire ever attempting to exterminate an entire people. Nor do I recall the Empire ever industrialising murder.

One need only look at what happened on Bloody Sunday to see inexcusable actions.

Which one? The Black and Tan massacre in the twenties - absolutely. The one in the 70s, while a fiasco, was a lot less clear cut. The Provos were active on the day, and were certainly the reason at least some of the Paras opened fire.

[celeritas]

whether imperialism is justifiable from it benefits or atrocities, whether it is right or wrong is not the my argument -- rather, i feel that imperialism is necessary. as to the british empire being a killing machine, well, all empires are killing machines. it is the human way. but empires are also engines of peace.

i believe that imperialism has its stabilizing effects that can benefit to humanity, even when such stability is enforced by destructive regimes. for example, the mongol empire is perhaps one of the bloodiest examples of imperialism. yet in the wake of mongolian conquest, there came pax mongolica, an era where the east could connect with the west, where trade could flourish as never before, and even european travelers could reach china. it was an unprecedented feat that, i would argue, has never been repeated.

is it right for the mongols to have slaughtered millions in their wake? is it justifiable for them to conquer entire civilizations, some as old as human history? i don't think i'm in any position to answer those questions, but the mongols did bring peace.

peace, accepted voluntarily or under duress, is peace nonetheless; and it is through peace that human civilization and human culture can flourish and prosper. all empires, including the british empire, have done much wrong and have done much right, but through the peace they create, whether it was pax romana, pax britannica, pax americana, etc., they have each left lasting legacies in human history. and, for better or worse, it is through their legacies that empires are remembered.

[Sionnach Glic]

Which one? The Black and Tan massacre in the twenties - absolutely.

That one, where they drove an armoured car into a gaelic pitch and gunned down the spectators.

Not to mention the sort of things that went on before this. (although that was before the empire IIRC)

[Monroe]

I think you guys over exaggerate the cruelity of the British Empire. Sure it had its bad moments but compared to other Empires in history like the Spainish one, for example, it wasn't that bad. And it all boils down to the people in the Empire not the Empire itself that was evil and its all a matter of opinion anyway. Some people say the Nuclear bomb attacks on Japan were needed others say they weren't, its all opinion.

I do think its funny that you can successfully argue, if you want, that the American independence was started by rich people not wanting to pay taxes

[Bryan Moore]

I think you guys over exaggerate the cruelity of the British Empire. Sure it had its bad moments but compared to other Empires in history like the Spainish one, for example, it wasn't that bad.

How about executing thousands of Indians by strapping them to cannons? Or burning down their temples, often with Hindu priests inside? Or the use of African/West Indian/Indian slave soldiers to subjugate their own people?

I love the British, I love the British Empire, but their cruelty is easily up there. And lets be honest, the Spanish stopped mattering for the most part after the Armada disaster. Their exploits with the Native Americans are brutal, certainly, but let's not forget, in many cases Indian on Indian violence helped the Spanish efforts in the New World.

[celeritas]

How about executing thousands of Indians by strapping them to cannons? Or burning down their temples, often with Hindu priests inside? Or the use of African/West Indian/Indian slave soldiers to subjugate their own people?

yeah that's up there with pouring molten silver in somebody's eyes and ears. empires are cruel, but not necessarily without redemption in my opinion.

[Bryan Moore]

How about executing thousands of Indians by strapping them to cannons? Or burning down their temples, often with Hindu priests inside? Or the use of African/West Indian/Indian slave soldiers to subjugate their own people?

yeah that's up there with pouring molten silver in somebody's eyes and ears. empires are cruel, but not necessarily without redemption in my opinion.

Well put. I based a few lessons last year with my sophomores on this theme. Specifically focused on 19th century European Imperialism. (Leopold of Belgium and his brutalization of the Congolese was awful, as was British, French, and even Italian colonial rule. Oh yeah, and good ol' US of A's eventual nasty rule in the Phillipines)

[Monroe]

How about executing thousands of Indians by strapping them to cannons? Or burning down their temples, often with Hindu priests inside? Or the use of African/West Indian/Indian slave soldiers to subjugate their own people?

yeah that's up there with pouring molten silver in somebody's eyes and ears. empires are cruel, but not necessarily without redemption in my opinion.

Its the people not the Empires themselves. Every Empire and I mean EVERY Empire did at least one thing positive for someone or had positive goals for one group of people's perspective. Stalin executed millions of his own people. Made people admit to crimes that they had no part in, like the Estonia movement to overthrow the USSR and establish Greater Estonia over all of Russia.. and even crazier plots. But the Russian people still loved Stalin. People tattooed his likelyness on their body many allowed themselves to be killed because Stalin never made a mistake, how could he? An absolute love for the man who sent millions of their own people, including themselves to Gulogs. And while now we recognize Stalin's USSR as one of the most evil empire's in world history it was still a very positive thing for a group of people at the time. Empire's aren't evil, men who run them are.

[Captain Peabody]

Really, most of the history of the world has been one long empire after another, conquering weaker nations until it gets conquered itself. The British Empire is only notable in that it was the last major one before the whole concept of empire-building went out of style. And as far as such Empires go, the Brits were astonishingly humane compared with, say, the Spaniards, who slaughtered millions of native Americans and had the remaining ones worked to death in their gold mines. Yes, the British had their horrible massacres and atrocities, but in my opinion they say more about the inherent wrongness of the system than anything about the British as a people. Yes, the idea of Imperialism is an inherently inhumane one, but there's no need to pile all the blame for this on the Brits, just because they're the only such Empire people today can remember...

[Monroe]

Good post ^

The Japanese, USSR, and Nazi Germany also created later Empires and I wouldn't call any of them humane.

Makes you wonder how similiar alien cultures in space are.