A problem with "Sacrifice of Angels"

D. Sergez · Post by **D. Sergez** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:07 am

That it is... Beautiful... Sisko won however due to the Klingons...

Post by **Teaos** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:36 am

The Klingons helped to win it. They did not win it themselves.

D. Sergez · Post by **D. Sergez** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:51 am

What i meant was without the Klingons Starfleet would have lost the battle
With the Klingons as part of the Fleet they Turned the Left Flank.

so When the klingons entered the allies Turned the Tides Against the Dominion

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:04 pm

Sisko was also following an old Napoleonic maxim by NOT dividing his fleet to try to circumvent the Dominion mass of ships: "Separate to travel, attack en masse."

I might be paraphrasing the original French here, but that's the idea.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:55 pm

Star Fleet has shown that the one thing they can mass produce is those two-man fighters. Add to that the fact that they can carry fed PT's and you have a nasty little pain in the butt. Yes, true, i know, they were almost usless against the G'H (not counting the bugs). But they work very well against any Cardi ship since their shields are CRAP! The feds showed that fighters can still be useful if use properly (and given alot of cover fire and someone jaming targeting sensors).

Star Fleet should look to the future and not only build crusier hulls but also a number of heavy carriers. The ablity to field 200 or 300 such fighter craft in any location should be a huge boost to the fleet. Both the Breen and Cardis have shown their lack of sheilding and the main warship of the G'H is the bug which also is fairly weak. A wall of fighters would also stop ramming tactics as any group trying to ram would have to get past them first and I bet if they had to in order to save their capital ships the fighters would start ramming as well.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:25 pm

Stop ramming tactics? Ramming is not a viable tactic, and has only been shown as rare act of desperation. It is certainly not a fleet-wide strategic method. Composing a fleet to deal with a tactic your opponent(s) won't use doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

As far as their usefulness, space combat in the 'Trek universe has consistently been demonstrated as carried on primarily by the "big boys," and 'Trek has consistently followed the adage of "bigger is better." Why this is or isn't true has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, but that's the way it is in the 'Trek world. That being said, those fighters, while highly maneuverable, are no match for even one hit from the weaponry of a ship of the line. They would be useful for flanking maneuvers, police an dpicket duties, and drawing off the fire of some opposing D-E types, but no more.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:21 pm

Mikey wrote:Stop ramming tactics? Ramming is not a viable tactic, and has only been shown as rare act of desperation. It is certainly not a fleet-wide strategic method. Composing a fleet to deal with a tactic your opponent(s) won't use doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Tell that to the E-D in "Cause and Effect", or the Odyssey, or the Kazon mothership in "Caretaker" or the Klingon ships in "Tears of the Prophets" or the Krenim weapon in "Year of Hell", or the Scimitar. Ramming has been demonstrated time and again to be an effective tactic.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:55 pm

Star Fleet should look to the future and not only build crusier hulls but also a number of heavy carriers. The ablity to field 200 or 300 such fighter craft in any location should be a huge boost to the fleet.

I don't think we have ever seen a Fed' ship large enough to carry that many fighters. A ship built to carry this many would surely be over a KM long, perhaps even more. Federation industrial capacity may not be able to build more than a handfull of such vessels, let alone the fighter compliment! I seriously doubt such a vessel would be usefull enough to justify the cost.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:02 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tell that to the E-D in "Cause and Effect", or the Odyssey, or the Kazon mothership in "Caretaker" or the Klingon ships in "Tears of the Prophets" or the Krenim weapon in "Year of Hell", or the Scimitar. Ramming has been demonstrated time and again to be an effective tactic.

The problem with ramming in Star Trek is that it almost always results in either the destruction of the rammer or severe damage as to make the rammer combat ineffective afterwards. It's really a one-shot tactic and one of desperation.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:41 am

Ramming is something you do when nothing else will work. You wouldnt do it with a ship that could still fight. But it does work and is a effective use for a damaged ship.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:21 am

Fighters are anti-ramming craft. They are good for attacking weaker craft like the G'H bugs. And they are far cheaper and easyier to build.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:37 am

Fighters are anti-ramming craft.

In what way could they stop a D'Derix ramming a Sovereign?

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:17 am

Well ramming is usually undertaken by severly damaged ships with little or no weaponary and shields. Fighters would be able to pick these off rather easily by hitting vital unprotected systems.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:24 am

True.

Revan · Post by **Revan** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:54 pm

The Enterprise-E was only able to ram the Scimitar because Shinzon was parked in front of Picard. He wasn't moving, and it takes time for a ship to reach a velocity.

The D'Deridex is a big, lumbering hulk, and I imagine it would be no match for a Sovereign... The main way to avoid getting rammed is to keep moving and avoid collision.

If a d'deridex was at the point where its only option was to ram its opponent, then a fighter could probably desroy its engines and thrusters with little difficulty. They may not be as fast, but they take very little time to reach their maximum speed... acceleration is useful.