A problem with "Sacrifice of Angels"

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A problem with "Sacrifice of Angels"

Post by I Am Spartacus »

As I'm sure we all know, in this episode Sisko was tasked with breaking through a Dominion fleet and getting to Deep Space Nine in time to prevent them from detonating the minefield over the Bajoran Wormhole.

The question I pose to you is this: once the Dominion fleet was assembled and in position, why did they not simply go to maximum warp and bypass the Dominion fleet altogether?

The Federation fleet was comprised of 594 vessels, but there's no reliable way to determine their collective maximum warp speed as we don't know what the slowest warp capable ship in the fleet was. For convenience's sake, I'll assume the old stalwart, the Miranda class, was the slowest class of vessel present with a top warp speed of 9.2 (according to DITL).

Next we have to get a rough estimate of the composition and depth of the Dominion fleet. There were 1,254 ships present, and again for convenience's sake we'll assume that each type seen on screen (Hideki, Galor, Bugship, Battlecruiser) comprises 25% of the fleet.

If each of these vessels were arrayed from end to end in a straight line, with 1,000 metres in between each ship, there would only be

1,254 / 4 = 314
314 x 85.78 = 26,934.92 Hideki
314 x 371.88 = 116,770.32 Galor
314 x 68.32 = 21,452.48 Bugship
314 x 639.75 = 200,881.5 Battlecruiser

1,254 x 1,000 = 1,254,000 Empty space

Total: 1,620,039.22

That's only 1,620.03922 kilometres our heroes have to cover before they're clear of the Dominion fleet. At warp 9.2, that would have taken mere nanoseconds to cross, not enough time for any Dominion vessel to fire any weapons and score a hit.

Now, as for the distance between the Dominion fleet and Deep Space Nine, Sisko orders the Defiant to maximum warp and states that they have three hours left before the minefield is detonated. No precise measurements are available, but since the Defiant arrives just in time to see the minefield blown away, we'll assume that it takes the Defiant precisely three hours at maximum warp to get to the station. The Defiant's warp capability may have been damaged during the battle, but we'll assume that it's operating at peak ability.

Warp 9.5 is equal to 550,718,745 kilometres per second, making the total distance to cover between the fleet and Deep Space Nine 5,947,762,446,000 kilometres. The addition of the Dominion fleet raises that to 5,947,762,447,620.03922 kilometres or over half a light year. At warp 9.2, that distance can be crossed in virtually the same amount of time. Tack on several million miles from the starting point in front of the Dominion fleet that can be crossed in mere seconds.

If Sisko did simply breeze by the Dominion fleet in nanoseconds by ordering the fleet to warp 9.2, the Galor class destroyers would have been unable to catch up. That evens the odds significantly. We don't know how large the Klingon fleet that intervenes is, but we'll assume it's large enough to make the allied fleet equal in size to the Dominion fleet.

Even if every vessel in the federation fleet only had time to launch a single volley of torpedoes and a single phaser beam after arrival, that would still have been enough to completely destroy Deep Space Nine. With several minutes, they would have been able to blow it to dust multiple times over with that many ships.

This is a problem I have with a lot of sci fi. Science fiction writers have massive fleets of ships clash in the middle of nowhere, when in reality unless your objective was to destroy an enemy fleet, you'd simply speed past them at high warp. The only battles that could take place would be immediately adjacent to the objective itself, defence anywhere else simply could not happen.

I'm sure this post isn't entirely coherent, I'll return to edit it later.
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Post by DBS »

One thing that we don't know is how far the battle actually happened from DS9. Sisko jumped to maximum warp after breaking through (and we assume that other Federation ships did once they made it, since we see many allied ships at the end of the episode).

As the commander of the allied fleet, I would rather engage the Dominion in open space for two reasons. First, it is possible to have a battle at warp speed, and apparently photon torpedoes can travel at warp (even if fired at impulse). So if I were to breeze past, there would be every chance that the Dominion would pursue me and at least get several volleys off. As we saw in "Flashback (VGR)" and the attack on the Excelsior, impacts at warp not only drop a ship out of warp but they do some damage. So I should expect a good portion of my fleet to be hit and knocked out of warp on the way past. Against that many enemy ships, they don't have much chance, and probably wouldn't inflict near as much damage on the enemy in smaller groups than we all could en-masse. So if I did that I would basically have divided my fleet and lost a portion of it without really hurting my larger opponent.

Second, even if I stay far enough away to evade any attacks, I put the fleet in a situation where I am sandwiched between an occupied DS9 and the enemy fleet, which is chasing me by now. I don't know for sure how many of DS9's weapons are back up, but I don't want to be on the wrong side of them! Even if I had some lead all the station would have to do is hold out long enough to detonate the minefield and the hold out until the fleet arrives.


Finally, bear in mind that the objectives are two fold. Not only prevent the detonation of the minefield, but also to re-capture DS9, due to it's strategic importance. Destroying the station outright is probably not an option (especially since it is Bajoran property, and that Bajor is non-aligned; the political fallout considering there are civilians on the station would probably prevent Bajor from helping the allies once they re-claimed the sector).

If it were just a direct attack with the intention of destroying the station, I'd agree (actually I'd have all Federation ships attack the Dominion fleet and once I knew there would be Klingon reinforcements, I'd have them sneak by under cloak, and take out the station once the Dominon fleet was fully committed to keeping Starfleet away. Then all I have to do is hold the line long enough for the deed to be done, then disengage.)

As it turns out, the Dominion fleet is broken and thus unable to assist the station, which surrendered.

Those are just my thoughts on the issue. If I missed the point let me know.
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Post by I Am Spartacus »

All very good points, but you can't instantaneously turn 1,254 ships around and have them engage at warp drive. Even if it took mere seconds to do so, those seconds would be all that was needed to get the federation fleet out of weapons range. There could be no battle at warp.

At least one quarter of the Dominion ships would not be able to pursue; the Bugships can sustain maximum warp for only one hour. The Galors have a maximum warp speed of 9.2; given my assumptions, they wouldn't close distance with the Federation fleet at all and would not be able to engage them at warp speeds. That's half of the Dominion fleet unable to engage. The Hidekis would, but they're next to useless. That leaves only the Dominion Battlecruisers; although I assumed that 25% of the Dominion fleet was Battlecruisers, this is not a realistic assumption.

Keep in mind that Sisko had no idea the Klingons were going to be joining the fray. He thought he was in it by himself. Part of my point was that it wasn't possible from the outset to prevent the detonation of the minefield, so a best plan B would have been to destroy the station outright. 594 ships would have been able to do that, even if they had only one shot each.
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Post by DBS »

Good point as well, and I am starting to see your argument. (my Klingon strategy was just me with the benefit of hindsight... :oops:)

I still have to (perhaps naively) assume, however, that for whatever reason the tactics used were more-or-less the best options available in that situation.

My guess is that if I missed the reasons for settling on a Big Decisive Battle in my first post, it had something to do with how the fleets approached each other.

If I, as the Federation fleet, was approaching the station, the Dominion commander needs to intercept me far enough away to keep me out of weapons range. They probably assume like you did, that if Starfleet fails to capture the station in time, they'll have to destroy it. So they warp out to intercept me.

We have each other on sensors, and can maneuver about. If the defenders time it right, they could just get right in behind and do the whole picking-off-at-warp thing. So to avoid either party doing that, It might be prudent drop out of warp just outside their weapon range, and they would be obliged to follow, since their whole plan is to give battle as far away from the station as possible.

So now the problem I might forsee with the warp sprint is that while it would surprise them, one can't get 500-odd ships to jump to warp safely at once anymore than you can 1200. Also don't forget that technically Jem'Hadar ships at least should have a faster reaction time than Federation ships. The short version is, in my mind, that even if only a portion of the Jem'Hadar fleet manages to give chase (perhaps even just the battlecruisers), they would be able to cause enough trouble near the station to buy time for the fleet to catch back up.

Finally, even with several seconds of lead-time, I believe that the Jem'Hadar and Keldon-class ships are capable of around warp 9.6 or so. If the Federation fleet remains at 9.2 or 9.4 in the interests of staying together, any lead would erode pretty fast. The chasing ships could close to range and then the warp-drive duel could still happen. Of course we could fire back, but every ship we knock out of warp is just one more waiting to pounce on the Federation ships that are similarly caught. They don't need their whole fleet to mount a warp-speed torpedo duel. In fact it would make sense to keep slower and weaker ships behind and out of the way of our return fire.

However, you are definitely on to something here! Suppose that the Federation attempted your warp-sprint and at least got a bit closer before getting caught again. Why not let the leading, fastest ships go on to the station while the slower ships drop out en-masse again and try to hold off the Dominion's leading elements? Especially if the chase divided up the Dominion fleet, it would be 500 or so medium starships against around a hundred battlecruisers and Keldons. If it were executed ideally, there could be serious damage done to the Dominion before the slower elements of the fleet caught up again. The resulting fight might be even enough for the line to hold long enough for the advance-fleet to re-take or destroy the station.
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Post by Space Ghost »

A couple things:

1) As we saw from the episode where DS9 initially fell into Dominion hands, the station took quite a pounding before it was disabled (same thing in Way of the Warrior). I don't think the Federation fleet would have been able to destroy the station in a single volley. And if it didn't work, the last thing you want from a tactical standpoint is to be surrounded: a heavily armed station in front of you, and a massive fleet coming from behind.

2) Assuming they could destroy DS9 right away, they wouldn't want to. There are thousands of Bajorans on the station, not to mention its strategic value as a starbase at the entrance to the wormhole.
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Post by DBS »

Yep. And I think that a combination of those factors plus what we've discussed earlier is why the characters chose the strategies that they did.

Thanks for summing up! Lord knows I need to shorten my posts a little :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by I Am Spartacus »

You're absolutely right, but I already said that we're assuming there was no way to retake it. No matter what he does, Sisko loses, and in this scenario he loses the least by destroying the station and preventing 4,800 (IIRC) Dominion ships from flooding the Alpha Quadrant.

I do recall Way of the Warrior, and IIRC in that episode Sisko had far fewer Klingon ships to deal with. Besides which, Sisko himself installed all the weapons upgrades and ran the station for five years, so it's not altogether unreasonable to assume that he has intimate knowledge of the station's abilities and weaknesses. I'm sure the writers could have Brooks pull some technobabble out of his rear end and disable the station's weapons (just kidding on that one!).

But here's what I'm thinking. Both fleets are stationery, and Sisko has sent in the fighters (which make no sense from a technical standpoint, but that's for another thread) and Dukat assumes he's about to engage. At the predetermined moment, every ship in the federation fleet guns its warp drives up to max. In today's military it's not difficult to do that, so I don't see how a fleet, if the entire maneouvre is planned, could not engage in warp drive at the same precise moment. It would, be difficult for the Dominion fleet to react in time, though.

Sisko would lose most of his fleet, but he'd destroy the station and manage to take out a huge number of Dominion ships, and the Klingons could clean up the rest. They'd arrive on the scene to find Sisko suffering heavy losses but would probably enable the surviving federation ships to withdraw.

And what are the Bajorans going to do? Align themselves with the Dominion and return to Cardassian occupation?
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Post by JudgeKing »

Another question, why weren't there any Sovereign Class Ships in the battle? It seems strange that the fleet wouldn't have its strongest class in the battle.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Perhaps the Sovereign was still being tested out? I can't really recall when the first Sovereign came into service but there was probably not too many in the fleet at the time.
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Post by JudgeKing »

Rochey wrote:Perhaps the Sovereign was still being tested out? I can't really recall when the first Sovereign came into service but there was probably not too many in the fleet at the time.
Why would it need anymore testing, I'm pretty sure they worked out all of the bugs by late 2375.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Like I said, I'm not too sure where it fits into the timeline. Perhaps they only had a few and were unwilling to risk them?
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Post by JudgeKing »

Rochey wrote:Like I said, I'm not too sure where it fits into the timeline. Perhaps they only had a few and were unwilling to risk them?
2371: Enterprise D destroyed/USS Sovereign commissioned
2372: Enterprise E commissioned
2373: Battle of Sector 001/Dominion War begins.
2374: Operation Return.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Ah, thanks for posting that. Cleared up some confusion for me, thanks. :)
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Post by Space Ghost »

I do believe there is a Sovereign that is briefly visible during the Chin'toka invasion a year later. If memory serves, it was after a Galaxy destroyed a deactivated Cardassian ODP. Just after it flew by with the rest of the fleet, I think there is a Sovereign in the upper left corner of the screen. I could be wrong, though. Screenshots anyone?
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Post by DBS »

Bear in mind that there still might not be many Sovereign class ships in the fleet yet.

We can assume that there must be at least two built by now, (USS Sovereign and USS Enterprise). We don't know if the Sovereign has been destroyed, though. Maybe it was such a valuable target because of how advanced she was. Perhaps that is why Starfleet kept the Enterprise away from the conflict? Save them in case the situation ever got REALLY bad.

But anyway, whether there is one, two, or more Sovereign class ships, there might not have been any available for Sisko. They mashed several fleets together, but there are several more fleets out there. Maybe Sovereign was assigned to one of those other fleets.
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