Why are ships listed as Unarmed?

[GandalfTG]

After my last question went slightly askew, due to nobody's fault but my own for wording it incorrectly, I have another question.

If even the Civilian Freighters from ST:Ent are armed with simple weapons, why are there any Federation Starships that are unarmed? Examples of this are The Sydney Class, The Shelley Class, and The Raven Class. When even shuttles have light phasers, why are these classes missing weapons?

[Deepcrush]

OH MY!

Thats a tough one. Maybe some people of the UFP believe they wouldn't ever need them.

[Sionnach Glic]

Hmm, probably because they're civilian transport and freight vessels, designed to work behind the Federation's lines with no contact with hostile vessels. Freighters and transports that go to and from the territory of other races are probably armed for defense, and they'd be the ones we see most.
Cost could also be a factor. It can't be cost effective to arm a ship that's likely never going to see combat.

[Captain Seafort]

There's also the question of what counts as being armed. A lot of modern merchant ships are armed, if they have to go through the South China Sea, or the Gulf of Aden on a regular basis. However, sine this armament is typically limited to assault rifles, and maybe an Oerlikon, they hardly count as serious naval weapons. In a similar fashion, phasers that struggle to deal with space junk probably won't be counted as armament.

[Graham Kennedy]

My take on the Federation is that they generally won't arm a ship that they don't think needs to be armed. Hospital ships, transports, etc are not things you want in combat, so why arm them?

Self defence? Perhaps... but if you're just going to put a few token light weapons on a cargo ship, it's still going to be easy prey for any warship. Why bother putting phasers on at all when it doesn't give you any chance of winning? Look at Dukat's freighter when it met the Klingon BoP - the token weapons they carried were totally useless. I see no point of fitting weapons just to give the crew something to do while they die.

If you're going to realistically defend against a warship, you would need to have the firepower of a warship. Not to mention the speed, agility, shields, etc. You end up with a big, expensive, powerful combat ship that has cargo bays instead of a simple cheap cargo ship. Not wise, IMO.

[GandalfTG]

Well, the Sydney at least wasn't Civilian, she was Starfleet. I base this deduction upon the Hull Registry beginning with NCC, the same as every other non-experimental registry, and bearing a "USS" prefix to the ship's name.

The Shelley class was also Starfleet, for the same reasons. Also, she was involved in a battle with the Borg. An unarmed ship would have run like hell instead of taking part in a fleet action against a target like that.

We have seen example of strictly Civilian ships before being named "SS" so and so, and NAR whatever as a registry prefix. As with the SS Vico, and the SS Raven. I can find no indication in the TV shows or the movies of their armament. Something may be found in the novels, but that would be a lot of books to go reading through. Too bad the Okuda's don't frequent the site's forums, or I'm sure that they could tell us...

I don't buy cost being an issue, considering that Starfleet has armed their entire shuttle fleet with type 4 and 5 phasers. If they are willing to do so for shuttles, which at most carry only a few passengers, why would they be unwilling to provide the protection that even weak weaponry brings to ships that carry hundreds?

Now, what does a Pirate call an unarmed vessel? Easy Pickings, Prey, Target Practice. Pirates are uncommon, but not unheard of even in the TNG era. The Orion Syndacate still exists. There are too many known threats to go about completly unarmed as a civilian, let alone as a Federation Starship that is required by law to render aid and fend off attacks against the member planets & their commerce. Also, as Starfleet acts as the Federation's Space-Based Police Force, why would any Law Enforcement Entity go about unarmed?

Now, I'll agree with Graham Kennedy that only using token weaponry is worthless against a warship, however, one would need to weigh the arms of a vessel against the targets they are likely to come up against, or be attacked by. This is why System Patrol Craft, in almost every sci-fi universe, are well armed, but not with the heaviest of weapons, which are typically reserved for combat vessels. However, since Starfleet is also supposed to serve as the Military in times of need for the Federation, they typically are armed with military weaponry. Now, not every vessel needs to be able to destroy a Klingon Vor'cha in a single volley in order to be considdered properly armed. Maybe the toughest threat that a given class is expected to see is a hundred year old K-13 that was sold on the open market, and refitted by pirates with hotter disruptors and heavier shields (and a big honkin tractor beam), but it would still need to defend itself against such a target, even if it only does so as it cries for help and runs bravely away. Not every threat is a state-of-the-art warship.

Also, Even the Medical personel in the US Military, who enter combat, corpsmen and the like, are just as fully armed as their combat-monkey bretheren. Now, this doesn't have a dirrect bearing on Starfleet, but the reasons behind it remain the same.

[Captain Seafort]

The reasoning behind who's armed and who isn't depends on the purpose of the ships involved. The shuttles are warships - small warships, but warships nonetheless. Merchant ships aren't. It's the difference between a ridgid raider and a cross-channel ferry. The former is military and therefore has combat as its fundamental role, whereas the latter is civilian.

[Mikey]

Also, Even the Medical personel in the US Military, who enter combat, corpsmen and the like, are just as fully armed as their combat-monkey bretheren.

Not really. Most field medical personnel will be armed as officers - pistol rahter than longarm, no grenades, and probably no k-bar.

As far as the ships, I sort of agree with the ridiculousness of not putting SOME sort of defensive armament, save for this. Would the Hansens of the SS Raven know what to do with a ship-mounted phaser even if they had one?

Also, your comparison with the civilian cargo ships of ENT is flawed. Those Y- and J-class crews were on their own - they were in international waters, so to speak, and nobody was around should they need help. A similar trader in TNG times would operate within Some power's sovereign territory, and would preusmably be under the protection of that power's policing/military auspices.

[GandalfTG]

Also, Even the Medical personel in the US Military, who enter combat, corpsmen and the like, are just as fully armed as their combat-monkey bretheren.

Not really. Most field medical personnel will be armed as officers - pistol rahter than longarm, no grenades, and probably no k-bar.

As far as the ships, I sort of agree with the ridiculousness of not putting SOME sort of defensive armament, save for this. Would the Hansens of the SS Raven know what to do with a ship-mounted phaser even if they had one?

Also, your comparison with the civilian cargo ships of ENT is flawed. Those Y- and J-class crews were on their own - they were in international waters, so to speak, and nobody was around should they need help. A similar trader in TNG times would operate within Some power's sovereign territory, and would preusmably be under the protection of that power's policing/military auspices.

The US Army and USMC both have Medics.
http://www.army.mil/-slideshows/2007/11 ... uty-queen/
That certainly looks like an M16 strapped to that Medic's back. I have serious doubts about the USMC, who's tradition is "Every Marine A Rifleman," doing any less.

As for the Hansen's and Phaser arrays, I would hope that they would recieve some training in that direction, considering that they were taking their daughter into Borg Territory. I can understand the whole "They will never even see us comming" aspect, but if you were taking your wife and kid into danger (something that I doubt I'D do in the first place) wouldn't YOU want a fall back plan in case the bad guys saw through your cloaking technology? We have also seen on the various shows that many civilians do know how to use weapons, even ship-board weapons. Even if the Hansen's weren't weapons-savy, they would still have enough computer-savy to use the ships computer to assist them in their use. We've all seen sufficient evidence to prove that it can be done.

I don't think my comparison is flawed at all. The Y- and J-Class freighters may have been operating in international waters, but the ultimate truth is that the cops can't be everywhere, and crime still exists. The Orion Syndicate episodes on DS9 is proof enough of that, and that is quite clearly within Federation Territory. If there are threats to your very life, your family, your way of life, you will take steps to protect them.

[GandalfTG]

The reasoning behind who's armed and who isn't depends on the purpose of the ships involved. The shuttles are warships - small warships, but warships nonetheless. Merchant ships aren't. It's the difference between a ridgid raider and a cross-channel ferry. The former is military and therefore has combat as its fundamental role, whereas the latter is civilian.

But, Starfleet doesn't build Warships, at least not until they built the Defiant Class, and even then she was officially only an Escort. Shuttlecraft aren't warships, they are transports, very small transports. their most common use is as personel transport, but they also are used for cargo transportation and scientific research. They are also used as Search and Rescue. Rarely are they used as light combat vessels, especially as Starfleet has, as of the middle of DS9, developed Starfighters to handle that role, again relegating the Shuttle to the purpose it was designed for, transportation.

Even if a Freighter is civilian owned and operated, which the classes in the list aren't, it would be up to the owners and operators if they wanted weapons or not. I just can't see how they would turn weapons down unless they were pacifist to the point of stupidity.

"Would you like a shield generator on your vessel?"
"No, that's ok, I don't believe in violence, so if someone wants to kill me, they can go right ahead."

And yes, that is how I see weapons. When it comes right down to brass tacks, a few phaser banks are just as important as a good shield generator. It makes the predators look elsewhere. I wouldn't need my freighter to out-gun a Galor Class Frigate, but I do need it to protect my cargo. The more the bad people of the galaxy are going to want my cargo, the more weapons, or perhaps escorts, I'm going to NEED to remain amongst the living.

When you walk down the street, do you pay attention to the people around you, looking for signs of danger, or do you go about your life oblivious to it? Those who are oblivious to danger get targeted by it, specifically because they are oblivious to it.

[Captain Seafort]

The US Army and USMC both have Medics.
http://www.army.mil/-slideshows/2007/11 ... uty-queen/
That certainly looks like an M16 strapped to that Medic's back. I have serious doubts about the USMC, who's tradition is "Every Marine A Rifleman," doing any less.

Completely different circumstances - medics are still soldiers, while the freighters we're talking about are civilian.

As for the Hansen's and Phaser arrays, I would hope that they would recieve some training in that direction, considering that they were taking their daughter into Borg Territory. I can understand the whole "They will never even see us comming" aspect, but if you were taking your wife and kid into danger (something that I doubt I'D do in the first place) wouldn't YOU want a fall back plan in case the bad guys saw through your cloaking technology? We have also seen on the various shows that many civilians do know how to use weapons, even ship-board weapons. Even if the Hansen's weren't weapons-savy, they would still have enough computer-savy to use the ships computer to assist them in their use. We've all seen sufficient evidence to prove that it can be done.

The very fact that they took their daughter with them while chasing an unknown alien species across the galaxy demonstrates that common sense isn't one of the Hansen's attributes. Given the size of their ship, and the very fact that it was civilian, it's highly unlikely that it was armed.

I don't think my comparison is flawed at all. The Y- and J-Class freighters may have been operating in international waters, but the ultimate truth is that the cops can't be everywhere, and crime still exists. The Orion Syndicate episodes on DS9 is proof enough of that, and that is quite clearly within Federation Territory. If there are threats to your very life, your family, your way of life, you will take steps to protect them.

Being ready for trouble is not the same as being armed to the teeth. Particularly since the Orion Syndicate has always been depicted as more like the Mafia than Edward Teach - they're drug smugglers, gun-runners, assassins and racketeers, not pirates.

[Captain Seafort]

The US Army and USMC both have Medics.
http://www.army.mil/-slideshows/2007/11 ... uty-queen/
That certainly looks like an M16 strapped to that Medic's back. I have serious doubts about the USMC, who's tradition is "Every Marine A Rifleman," doing any less.

Completely different circumstances - medics are still soldiers, while the freighters we're talking about are civilian.

As for the Hansen's and Phaser arrays, I would hope that they would recieve some training in that direction, considering that they were taking their daughter into Borg Territory. I can understand the whole "They will never even see us comming" aspect, but if you were taking your wife and kid into danger (something that I doubt I'D do in the first place) wouldn't YOU want a fall back plan in case the bad guys saw through your cloaking technology? We have also seen on the various shows that many civilians do know how to use weapons, even ship-board weapons. Even if the Hansen's weren't weapons-savy, they would still have enough computer-savy to use the ships computer to assist them in their use. We've all seen sufficient evidence to prove that it can be done.

The very fact that they took their daughter with them while chasing an unknown alien species across the galaxy demonstrates that common sense isn't one of the Hansen's attributes. Given the size of their ship, and the very fact that it was civilian, it's highly unlikely that it was armed.

I don't think my comparison is flawed at all. The Y- and J-Class freighters may have been operating in international waters, but the ultimate truth is that the cops can't be everywhere, and crime still exists. The Orion Syndicate episodes on DS9 is proof enough of that, and that is quite clearly within Federation Territory. If there are threats to your very life, your family, your way of life, you will take steps to protect them.

Being ready for trouble is not the same as being armed to the teeth. Particularly since the Orion Syndicate has always been depicted as more like the Mafia than Edward Teach - they're smugglers, gun-runners, assassins and racketeers, not pirates.

[GandalfTG]

Follow the thread Cap'n...

ME: Also, Even the Medical personel in the US Military, who enter combat, corpsmen and the like, are just as fully armed as their combat-monkey bretheren. Now, this doesn't have a dirrect bearing on Starfleet, but the reasons behind it remain the same.

Mikey: Not really. Most field medical personnel will be armed as officers - pistol rahter than longarm, no grenades, and probably no k-bar.

ME: That certainly looks like an M16 strapped to that Medic's back.

while the freighters we're talking about are civilian.

And I don't know which freighter's you're talking about, because the one's that I've referenced SPECIFICALLY, The Shelley and The Sydney, were both very clearly Starfleet, therefor MILITARY (sorta). As I have said before, the only one of the three completly unarmed classes that we haven't seen an official Starfleet version of would be The Raven, and I have already said that I do accept the possibility that she may well have been unarmed, but to do so would be criminally negligent, immoral, and Felony Stupidity.

I believe that The Orion Syndicate is organized crime. as such, Smuggling, gun-running, racketeering, etc, is a normal part of business. So is Piracy for a space born criminal enterprise. Even if the Orion Syndicate itself doesn't commit piracy, that doesn't mean that other groups don't. As an example, the Maquis were very clearly cast in the role of pirates. Lursa & Bator are also clearly pirates. Other groups and organizations of the era were also cast in the same role.

Being ready for trouble is not the same as being armed to the teeth.

I agree with this entirely. One does not need twenty class XII phasers and 10 rapid fire quantium torpedo launchers to be considered "Ready for Trouble." A couple of older class VII phaser strips is more than sufficient, and most likely cheap enough, for your basic "Ready for Trouble" check. It's more than a shuttle, but far less than modern Starfleet ships, so should hardly be intimidating to other governments, but should be enough to intimidate pirates.

Now, again, that is ignoring the fact that the Shelley and Sydney WERE Starfleet, and were expected not only to defend themselves, but the Federation itself should the need arise, and they have no business being unarmed in any way shape or form.

Why was a Shelley seen limping away from a combat zone when the Federation was at war with the Dominion? Civilian vessels aren't permitted in combat zones, UNARMED Civilians even less so. That vessel was very clearly a part of the fleet action, and as such, had to be armed. Starfleet isn't in the habit of risking an entire crew just to deliver a few spare parts, making the argument that she was just an unarmed cargo hauler would be madness.

[Captain Seafort]

And I don't know which freighter's you're talking about, because the one's that I've referenced SPECIFICALLY, The Shelley and The Sydney, were both very clearly Starfleet, therefor MILITARY (sorta). As I have said before, the only one of the three completly unarmed classes that we haven't seen an official Starfleet version of would be The Raven, and I have already said that I do accept the possibility that she may well have been unarmed, but to do so would be criminally negligent, immoral, and Felony Stupidity.

The Raven is a science ship, and arming it would be just as much a waste of space as putting scientific instruments on a warship (which probably counts as an argument for it being armed ). The Sydney is a transport, not a warship, which are typically unarmed, or armed only with machine guns, for which there is no Fed analogue.

I believe that The Orion Syndicate is organized crime. as such, Smuggling, gun-running, racketeering, etc, is a normal part of business. So is Piracy for a space born criminal enterprise. Even if the Orion Syndicate itself doesn't commit piracy, that doesn't mean that other groups don't. As an example, the Maquis were very clearly cast in the role of pirates. Lursa & Bator are also clearly pirates. Other groups and organizations of the era were also cast in the same role.

How does organised crime = piracy? The latter is a much more dangerous occupation, particularly in space where there's nowhere to hide, and runs the risk of accidentally hitting a Q-ship or a heavily-shielded craft. Also, we've never seen any indication that the Syndicate is involved in piracy - they prefer less high-profile activities. Lursa and B'etor were smugglers, not pirates, and the Maquis tended to concentrate on Cardassian targets. Overall, the tendency of piracy in TNG+ Trek appears very low and in any event, raising shields and running would be a better option than trying to fight.

I agree with this entirely. One does not need twenty class XII phasers and 10 rapid fire quantium torpedo launchers to be considered "Ready for Trouble." A couple of older class VII phaser strips is more than sufficient, and most likely cheap enough, for your basic "Ready for Trouble" check. It's more than a shuttle, but far less than modern Starfleet ships, so should hardly be intimidating to other governments, but should be enough to intimidate pirates.

Evek expressed surprise in "Preemptive Strike" at the Maquis possesing Type-VIII phasers, although whether that was refering to the scale of the weapons or there existence is unclear. The implication generally seems to be that the Maquis bolted weapons onto previously unarmed ships, indicating that this is the typical state of affairs.

Now, again, that is ignoring the fact that the Shelley and Sydney WERE Starfleet, and were expected not only to defend themselves, but the Federation itself should the need arise, and they have no business being unarmed in any way shape or form.

Not all military ships go round with heavy armament. Transports in particularly tend to be very lighly armed - with machine guns at most.

Why was a Shelley seen limping away from a combat zone when the Federation was at war with the Dominion? Civilian vessels aren't permitted in combat zones, UNARMED Civilians even less so. That vessel was very clearly a part of the fleet action, and as such, had to be armed. Starfleet isn't in the habit of risking an entire crew just to deliver a few spare parts, making the argument that she was just an unarmed cargo hauler would be madness.

Quite apart from the fact that many military vessels are unarmed, it's not unheard of for civilian ships to go into combat unarmed - the Canberra at the Battle of San Carlos Water, for example, was armed only with the light-role GPMGs of its infantry passengers.

[Sionnach Glic]

Somethings I didn't see adressed, so I thought I'd jump in.

But, Starfleet doesn't build Warships, at least not until they built the Defiant Class, and even then she was officially only an Escort.

It's debateable whether a lot of Starfleet's ships can be considred 'warships' (we've had a thread on that already, so lets not get into that again), but they certainly get themselves into dangerous situations a lot, and even full-fledged wars. So arming them is a very good idea.

Shuttlecraft aren't warships, they are transports, very small transports. their most common use is as personel transport, but they also are used for cargo transportation and scientific research. They are also used as Search and Rescue. Rarely are they used as light combat vessels, especially as Starfleet has, as of the middle of DS9, developed Starfighters to handle that role, again relegating the Shuttle to the purpose it was designed for, transportation.

Shuttlecraft are sometimes called upon to enter combat zones for a whole bunch of reasons, hence arming them makes sense.

Even if a Freighter is civilian owned and operated, which the classes in the list aren't, it would be up to the owners and operators if they wanted weapons or not. I just can't see how they would turn weapons down unless they were pacifist to the point of stupidity.

For the same reason that modern day trading ships don't usualy have guns, perhaps?

"Would you like a shield generator on your vessel?"
"No, that's ok, I don't believe in violence, so if someone wants to kill me, they can go right ahead."

Actualy, it's more akin to:
"Would you like a shield generator on your vessel?"
"No, thats OK, I'm not planning on entering hostile situations, or putting myself and my cargo at risk."

Again, you could say similar things about modern day ships.

And yes, that is how I see weapons. When it comes right down to brass tacks, a few phaser banks are just as important as a good shield generator. It makes the predators look elsewhere. I wouldn't need my freighter to out-gun a Galor Class Frigate, but I do need it to protect my cargo.

Problem is, unless you take up a large area of your ship with generators, guns, shield generators, etc (which would seriously impact your profits) your ship will be completely impotent against any pirating ship which would, naturaly, be dedicated for combat. At best, you would only annoy the attackers to the point where they shoot you dead rather than take your cargo and let you go on your way.