The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

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Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals. The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties. Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.

Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth. But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial. In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates. In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up. Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people. There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’

Experts believe the cases may account for up to 15 per cent of the total adoptions that took place in Spain between 1960 and 1989.
Three. Hundred. Thousand.

This should be the end of the Catholic Church. I have no doubt it won't be. But it should.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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Good effin' lord.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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GrahamKennedy wrote:Source
Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals. The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties. Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.

Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth. But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial. In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates. In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up. Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people. There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’

Experts believe the cases may account for up to 15 per cent of the total adoptions that took place in Spain between 1960 and 1989.
Three. Hundred. Thousand.

This should be the end of the Catholic Church. I have no doubt it won't be. But it should.
I find it odd that you single out the Catholic church in all of this. Most articles on it flat admit it began as a program of political origin under Franco to take children away from politically unreliable people and then hospitals and churches continued the practice.

It seems odd to demand it be the end of the Catholic Church and not to single out any other entity involved. How about the Spanish government? Or the universal healthcare system that started in 1978?

There are plenty of guilty people involved and this hardly involves the whole of the Catholic Church. Yes there are evil things associated with that church just like there are any religion or large group of people. But in this story it seems a bit of a reach to say it should be the end of the Catholic Church and ignore the involvement of a bunch of other actors in this completely.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Deepcrush »

Agreed, short of the Catholic Church being responsible for setting the whole thing up. Its rather pathetic to try a lay the blame of something like this on their feet.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Tyyr »

Come on Big, you've been around here long enough to know how it works.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Nutso »

This is the headline:
300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain
Unless you read the article, you'd believe the Church was running the show. They're just salesmen in this ordeal. These amnesty laws passed after Franco's death, this means that people who were involved in these crimes can't be prosecuted?
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Deepcrush »

So the Catholic Church as a whole is responsible... for what the spainish government did... good to know.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Mikey »

The Church, as a supposedly moral entity, is to blame for taking part and for not exposing and condemning the practice. However, it's WAY too easy to take a shot at the Church as an embodiment of religion while ignoring the political actors involved.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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BigJKU316 wrote:I find it odd that you single out the Catholic church in all of this. Most articles on it flat admit it began as a program of political origin under Franco to take children away from politically unreliable people and then hospitals and churches continued the practice.

It seems odd to demand it be the end of the Catholic Church and not to single out any other entity involved. How about the Spanish government? Or the universal healthcare system that started in 1978?

There are plenty of guilty people involved and this hardly involves the whole of the Catholic Church. Yes there are evil things associated with that church just like there are any religion or large group of people. But in this story it seems a bit of a reach to say it should be the end of the Catholic Church and ignore the involvement of a bunch of other actors in this completely.
I find it odd that you find it odd. Of course it began under Franco, and he gets his share of the blame but it's kinda hard to do anything about that, what with him being dead. And yes, secular hospitals and such involved also deserve their share of the blame. None of that affects the fact that the church was in this up to its neck, and given the numbers it was on a wide scale and likely with tacit approval from on high. We may never know just how high.

This, coming from an organisation which often claims that doing good is a part of its very reason for existence? Hell yes I single that out.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by shran »

How does this compare to the Stolen generations in Australia? As I read this, similarities began to crop up in my mind.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Mikey »

Believe you me, if any of you had ever read what Church fathers had written about my people, you would have (to paraphrase Ghostbusters) seen shit that would turn you white.* However, I don't think JKU has an issue with assigning blame to the Church for its role this - rather, I think his issue is that stories like this and their associated responses tend to single out the Church and somewhat omit the importance of assigning blame equally to the secular parties involved.

* for example:
St. John Chrysostom wrote:The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ . . .The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christian may never cease vengeance, and the Jews must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is incumbent upon all Christians to hate the Jews.
[T]he Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer." … Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them."
Martin Luther wrote:What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy...First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians. ...For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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God always hated the Jews.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

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GrahamKennedy wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:I find it odd that you single out the Catholic church in all of this. Most articles on it flat admit it began as a program of political origin under Franco to take children away from politically unreliable people and then hospitals and churches continued the practice.

It seems odd to demand it be the end of the Catholic Church and not to single out any other entity involved. How about the Spanish government? Or the universal healthcare system that started in 1978?

There are plenty of guilty people involved and this hardly involves the whole of the Catholic Church. Yes there are evil things associated with that church just like there are any religion or large group of people. But in this story it seems a bit of a reach to say it should be the end of the Catholic Church and ignore the involvement of a bunch of other actors in this completely.
I find it odd that you find it odd. Of course it began under Franco, and he gets his share of the blame but it's kinda hard to do anything about that, what with him being dead. And yes, secular hospitals and such involved also deserve their share of the blame. None of that affects the fact that the church was in this up to its neck, and given the numbers it was on a wide scale and likely with tacit approval from on high. We may never know just how high.

This, coming from an organisation which often claims that doing good is a part of its very reason for existence? Hell yes I single that out.
As Mikey said. I have no issue with assigning blame to the church. I find it odd that you only assigned blame to the church and the apparent level of anger you have towards the church. I am no fan of Catholicism in general and am quite lukewarm on religion as a whole (we go to church in fits and starts as a family, sometimes missing for several months such as football season so I am hardly a religious zealot). But there is plenty of blame to go around in this situation.

I also would require a bit more evidence that the church was "up to its neck" in this than your claim that it must be so simply because of the numbers involved. Even if we assume some of the leadership knew that is hardly an indictment of the religion as a whole.

Your argument that it should be the end of the Catholic church is what is really odd in this situation. Does that seem a rational and proportional action to this? What level of problems with the church mean that it should not be allowed to exist going forward? And if we apply that standard to other organizations what are we as a society left with? Is there a statue of limitations on how far back we are looking on this one? I mean if one is going to argue for the end of a global religion I feel some reasoning as to why should be given.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Mikey »

Tyyr wrote:
God always hated the Jews.
Someone didn't read his Old Testament.
Oh, they read it and accepted it fundamentally... except when it interfered with their bigotry. Those parts were, apparently, the parts in which the infallible G-d was wrong. :roll:
BigJKU316 wrote:
GrahamKennedy wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:I find it odd that you single out the Catholic church in all of this. Most articles on it flat admit it began as a program of political origin under Franco to take children away from politically unreliable people and then hospitals and churches continued the practice.

It seems odd to demand it be the end of the Catholic Church and not to single out any other entity involved. How about the Spanish government? Or the universal healthcare system that started in 1978?

There are plenty of guilty people involved and this hardly involves the whole of the Catholic Church. Yes there are evil things associated with that church just like there are any religion or large group of people. But in this story it seems a bit of a reach to say it should be the end of the Catholic Church and ignore the involvement of a bunch of other actors in this completely.
I find it odd that you find it odd. Of course it began under Franco, and he gets his share of the blame but it's kinda hard to do anything about that, what with him being dead. And yes, secular hospitals and such involved also deserve their share of the blame. None of that affects the fact that the church was in this up to its neck, and given the numbers it was on a wide scale and likely with tacit approval from on high. We may never know just how high.

This, coming from an organisation which often claims that doing good is a part of its very reason for existence? Hell yes I single that out.
As Mikey said. I have no issue with assigning blame to the church. I find it odd that you only assigned blame to the church and the apparent level of anger you have towards the church. I am no fan of Catholicism in general and am quite lukewarm on religion as a whole (we go to church in fits and starts as a family, sometimes missing for several months such as football season so I am hardly a religious zealot). But there is plenty of blame to go around in this situation.

I also would require a bit more evidence that the church was "up to its neck" in this than your claim that it must be so simply because of the numbers involved. Even if we assume some of the leadership knew that is hardly an indictment of the religion as a whole.

Your argument that it should be the end of the Catholic church is what is really odd in this situation. Does that seem a rational and proportional action to this? What level of problems with the church mean that it should not be allowed to exist going forward? And if we apply that standard to other organizations what are we as a society left with? Is there a statue of limitations on how far back we are looking on this one? I mean if one is going to argue for the end of a global religion I feel some reasoning as to why should be given.
The Church was likewise "up to its neck" and more so than in this case when the Malleus Maleficarum was published under false pretense and all those women, Jews, and Islamic North Africans were murdered. The Church was past its neck and WAY over its head in 1096. However, do the actions of those Dominicans and those Crusaders - even with the complicity of the papacy - mean that hundreds of millions of modern Catholics who have had no hand in those matters should be punished? Of course not, unless there is an anti-religion or disestablishmentarian agenda which one is attempting to promulgate.
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Re: The worst scandal yet for the Catholic Church?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Mikey wrote:I think his issue is that stories like this and their associated responses tend to single out the Church and somewhat omit the importance of assigning blame equally to the secular parties involved.
I think that has more to do with the fact that this is another in a rather long list of scandals for them. I know my first reaction to it was "what, again?"
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