Windows on starships.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:52 pm

Why is it that so many sci-fi universes have windows on what are otherwise well armoured ships? Wether its Star Trek, Star Wars, or a number of others there are allways windows.
Can anyone think of an in universe explaination for this?

The Wormhole · Post by **The Wormhole** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:04 pm

People like to look outside? Honestly, I never thought much about it. Although it's worth noting in the new BSG, Galactica only has one window, which the crew takes turns gazing out of.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:15 pm

Yeah, its an odd question that occured to me recently.
You wouldn't see much looking outside though. Unless you find endless space interesting.
It would also create a weak point on the hull of any ship.

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:21 pm

Unless building materials allowed windows to not be any weaker than the rest of the hull. I know they have "transparent aluminum", so why not assume that there is a way to alloy that to increase strength such that there is no difference.

Then again, maybe there is a difference in strength but it is negligible. Remember, the hulls aren't just armoured like in BSG. The structural integrity field may have something to do with keeping the hull sound despite any weaker points. That is probably okay if you aren't planning on getting into serious trouble. Basically, I'd say it is analogous to portholes on a cruise ship. Yes, they're than the hull, but they are strong enough to survive anything that can be reasonably expected to happen.

Look, for example, at Starfleet's only pure-bred warship, the Defiant class. Not many windows, and they specifically point to having extra armour installed. The only windows are also relatively sheltered. But that in itself might be a result of the design (thicker hull, or equipment between the habitable areas and the outer hull), and not any weaknesses to windows. There just might not be many rooms that have a view outside, unless you WANT to have a lovely view of an EPS relay

Post by **IanKennedy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:31 pm

Actually, the windows on Trek are not made of glass. It's transparent aluminium, or at least they are in the TOS era. It could be something better after that and just because it's transparent doesn't mean it's not as strong.

From a psychological standpoint people like to see what's going on around them. From the days of the TOS enterprise they've had an observation lounge where crew could go somewhere to see out, TNG had 10-forward, DS9 had windows on the top deck of the promenade that people liked to go and look out of. There's a good reason they put a huge 'window' on the front of the bridge.

I would find it quite depressing to be sealed in a box and not be able to see what's outside. Especially with spectacular items like nebula just outside.

Sothar · Post by **Sothar** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:01 pm

There does seem to be a structural weakness in windows in trek. That is clearly seen in Generations when they windows break in during the crash. But still, I think the reasons given for their presence are good.

Babylon 5 is one series in which they minimised the number of windows for the exact reason that they could break. On the station, there are very few windows. Some are in observation rotundas built only to look outside and probably usually unused during combat. There are very small view-ports on outside levels but their small size probably makes them quite resistant. There is a large window in Command and Control but huge blast doors can be closed to protect it.

Some ships have a lot of windows but they are usually from advances races like Centauri or Minbari who have probably found ways to make very resistant transparent materials.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:21 pm

You've made some good points there.

Unless building materials allowed windows to not be any weaker than the rest of the hull. I know they have "transparent aluminum", so why not assume that there is a way to alloy that to increase strength such that there is no difference

Good point, however we can see that the 'windows' are actually thiner than the hull around it, so it would actually need to be stronger than what the hull is made out of. Which begs the question of why didn't they build the whole ship out of it if its thinner but stronger.

The structural integrity field may have something to do with keeping the hull sound despite any weaker points.

Yes but does it not seem rather ridiculous to have to rely on an active system which can be knocked out?

As for the view, a lot of the time you're going to be in deep space, the middle of nowhere! I would find it rather depressing to look out a window and see...black.
If you want to have a nice view, could you not just put up a viewscreen which displays nice scenery? That way you save on hull strength and still keep the morale boost provided.

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:49 pm

Which is why I mostly think that with the materials used there is little to no hull strength lost due to windows. Thus differences in window usage just describe different internal layouts.

This also seems supported by the fact that a lot of alien ships have windows, too, even Klingons, who one would think would have little use for them, especially if they actually hurt overall hull strength.

as you said:

"As for the view, a lot of the time you're going to be in deep space, the middle of nowhere! I would find it rather depressing to look out a window and see...black.
If you want to have a nice view, could you not just put up a viewscreen which displays nice scenery? That way you save on hull strength and still keep the morale boost provided."

Remember that the Voyager crew nearly went crazy when they could only see blackness! So maybe being able to see out has some more-or-less universal positive psychological implications.

Post by **IanKennedy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:15 pm

DBS wrote:Which is why I mostly think that with the materials used there is little to no hull strength lost due to windows. Thus differences in window usage just describe different internal layouts.

This also seems supported by the fact that a lot of alien ships have windows, too, even Klingons, who one would think would have little use for them, especially if they actually hurt overall hull strength.

Agreed

as you said:

"As for the view, a lot of the time you're going to be in deep space, the middle of nowhere! I would find it rather depressing to look out a window and see...black.
If you want to have a nice view, could you not just put up a viewscreen which displays nice scenery? That way you save on hull strength and still keep the morale boost provided."

Remember that the Voyager crew nearly went crazy when they could only see blackness! So maybe being able to see out has some more-or-less universal positive psychological implications.

I don't think it would be that black. You only have to go to a really dark area and look at the sky, it's full of stars. Lots to see, even when you aren't anywhere in perticular. I don't think a view screen is any substitute for the real thing. I've been to the grand canyon and it's much more impressive than any TV picture of it.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:14 pm

You both raised some good points.
I don't kow why but I still have a thing against them, I agree they're a good idea on a civillian vessel which is not going into danger. As for warships I just don't like them, they're soldiers not sightseers!

I don't think it would be that black. You only have to go to a really dark area and look at the sky, it's full of stars. Lots to see, even when you aren't anywhere in perticular.

You are, of course, correct. It's been cloudy non-stop over here for the last few weeks, I think I've forgotten what the night sky looks like!

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:18 pm

[quote="Rochey"]As for warships I just don't like them, they're soldiers not sightseers!

Humans, remember, don't really consider their ships warships

But maybe Klingons just like to be able to look their adversaries in the eye

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:22 pm

True, however I wasn't limiting this just to Trek. Other Sci-fi does this as well, and their humans aren't always as 'enlightened' as Trek's.

I think one of the most glaring problems is pointed out in Star Wars, a fighter crashing through the bridge windows would be a bit of an inconvenience!

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:35 pm

Yeah. One would think that the best place for the bridge would be somewhere inside the ship, not right on top/right in front, and DEFINITELY not with big windows that give it away (even if they are as strong as the hull).

BTW, I like how the TOS Constitution class ships have an auxiliary bridge closer to the middle of the ship, away from the outside. Redundancy is nice...a concept KDY might want to experiment with on their next super-ship

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:44 pm

Definately, putting a bridge up there is like painting a big bullseye on the head of the captain!
I like nBSG's bridge concept, more of an armoured bunker deep inside the ship.

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What the hell! 100 posts? How did I get that many?

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Tiberius · Post by **Tiberius** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:35 am

IanKennedy wrote:I don't think it would be that black. You only have to go to a really dark area and look at the sky, it's full of stars. Lots to see, even when you aren't anywhere in perticular. I don't think a view screen is any substitute for the real thing. I've been to the grand canyon and it's much more impressive than any TV picture of it.

Actually, this is one of the issues with the moon landing and how some people believe it was a hoax. They claim that if people went to the moon, then there should be stars in the sky. However, the astronauts on the moon didn't see stars for the same reason that a person on a real starship wouldn't see stars.

Simply put, the interior of a starship is pretty well lit. A person inside is going to have their eyes adapted to the brightness. They won't be able to see the stars because the stars are just too dim. Their pupils will need to open wider to let in enough light to see the stars, but then they'll have too much light coming in from the interior lights and they'd be blinded.

For a similar reason the photos of the moon landings don't show the stars. The photos were of people in sunlight wearing white clothes, a pretty bright subject. The camera settings required to properly expose a person in such conditions wouldn't show the stars at all. You can try it yourself. take a photo of someone in bright sunlight, then use those exact same settings (shutter speed, aperture and ISO) to take a picture of the night sky. You'll just get a whole bunch of black.

Anyway, I'm sure my signature is making sense now.