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I wonder, since the birth of The Federation, and beyond, how much influence Section 31 has had on the regional and even outside 'goings on' in the AQ and BQ, how much effect that they have had on Starfleet's development, culturally, militarily, etc. I wonder if they are in collusion with operatives from the Future the likes of Daniels from ENT, and if they have influenced people like Admiral Cartwright's anti-Klingon alliance camp from TUDC, or people like Benjamin Maxwell, Admiral Leyton from paradise lost, Norah Satie, etc, etc. And where was section 31 during the whole Obsidian Order/Prometheus incident, and TNG Invasion? I believe there is more than meets the eye with Section 31, alot more.

It's integral to the nature of an organization like S31 to have "more than meets the eye." The whole point of a clandestine organization is to have very little meet the eye at all. I don't think that there will ever be a way to tell the scope of S31's influence on Starfleet or the UFP at large; offhand, though, I'd say relatively little - despite whatever influence S31 may have had, Starfleet continues to look at the galaxy through hippie-dippy, peacenik, rose-colored glasses.

Mikey wrote:It's integral to the nature of an organization like S31 to have "more than meets the eye."

Since when were S31 made up of giant robots?

Well, that's a hell of a mindbender you've posed there, Victory. One we have no cannon means of solving, but since this is a mental excercise I'll go with it. I can easily see alot of places where S31 could have been involved, from the loss of the USS Drake (Arsenel of Freedom) going after that damned weapons system, to the grand murder plot in TUC. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that at least one member of the conspiricy (I'd GUESS Col. West) was acutally a standing member of S31.

The parasitic invasion, I'd guess they didn't know about, or respond too, since that would have violated their charter totally. And here's a thought....we KNOW that as of Turnabout Intruder, going to Talos IV still held the death penalty. Do you suppose that is where they're base is?

Wow....this is food for conspericy theory nuts huh?

Captain Seafort wrote:

Mikey wrote:It's integral to the nature of an organization like S31 to have "more than meets the eye."

Since when were S31 made up of giant robots?

See? Like I said - there's a lot you don't know abut them.

Mikey wrote:It's integral to the nature of an organization like S31 to have "more than meets the eye." The whole point of a clandestine organization is to have very little meet the eye at all. I don't think that there will ever be a way to tell the scope of S31's influence on Starfleet or the UFP at large; offhand, though, I'd say relatively little - despite whatever influence S31 may have had, Starfleet continues to look at the galaxy through hippie-dippy, peacenik, rose-colored glasses.

Do you suppose S31 was behind the space hippies?????????????

Absolutely. If the CIA could conduct their LSD experiments, why not S31?

Really though...The situation with the Prometheus, stolen by the Obsidian Order? One of Starfleets most advanced and dangerous ships, taken from right under their noses. Any respectable intelligence agency (S31) should have been all over that. That was just SHEER incompetence.

@ Mikey: That episode suddenly makes so much more sense!

@Victory: True....but no agency can be everywhere and know about everything going on at once.

Victory is Life wrote:Any respectable intelligence agency (S31) should have been all over that. That was just SHEER incompetence.

Even the best fuck up sometimes. 45 minutes anyone?

Captain Seafort wrote:

Victory is Life wrote:Any respectable intelligence agency (S31) should have been all over that. That was just SHEER incompetence.

Even the best f**k up sometimes. 45 minutes anyone?

True, and even more to the point - why? I wouldn't blame the CIA for a failure of the NSA, why would I blame S31 for a failure of Starfleet R&D?

Remember though, S31 isn't an intelligence agency in the same sense of the CIA or the like. They don't seem to care much about anything that isn't a threat to the federation as a whole. Add in that they don't even officially exist, and I see no reason they should have been in place to stop that theft. That's a matter for SF security.

Excerpted from Memory Beta

"In 2293, Admiral Cartwright was part of a conspiracy to assassinate Klingon Chancellor Gorkon, Son of Toq, and Federation President Ra-ghoratreii in collusion with Klingon General Chang, Romulan Ambassador Nanclus, Federation Starfleet Colonel Patrick West, Lieutenant Valeris, Yeomen Burke and Samno, the commandant of Rura Penthe and a prisoner there named Martia. The conspiracy's goal was to undermine the peace process and ignite a war between the Empire and the Federation that each side's members in the conspiracy believed their nation destined to win. (TOS movie: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

Given Cartwright's prior history with Section 31, some have speculated that this was also a Section 31 operation, although no evidence has surfaced to confirm this. "

Interesting...I'm not the only one who thinks Admiral Cartwright was involved in section 31. Come to think of it, Doesn't Brock Pete---er I mean, Admiral Cartwright bear an unbelievably striking resemblance to Joseph Sisko?!?! OMFG!!! CONSPIRACY!!! It has SOMETHING to do with the founders, and the reverse vampires, OMG!! We are through the looking glass people!

Seriously though, on the subject of the Undiscovered Country...Wow, Colonel West kicks ass "Then quite frankly Mr. President, we can clean their chronometers" Badass...

Lighthawk wrote:Remember though, S31 isn't an intelligence agency in the same sense of the CIA or the like.

What gives you that idea? In many ways the CIA is the perfect analogy, given their tendency towards action rather than just intelligence gathering.

Victory is Life wrote:Excerpted from Memory Beta

MB is specifically non-canon.

Lighthawk wrote:Remember though, S31 isn't an intelligence agency in the same sense of the CIA or the like. They don't seem to care much about anything that isn't a threat to the federation as a whole. Add in that they don't even officially exist, and I see no reason they should have been in place to stop that theft. That's a matter for SF security.

Exactly. S31 can't be held to task for an incident which was completely outside their purview.

Victory is Life wrote:Excerpted from Memory Beta

"In 2293, Admiral Cartwright was part of a conspiracy to assassinate Klingon Chancellor Gorkon, Son of Toq, and Federation President Ra-ghoratreii in collusion with Klingon General Chang, Romulan Ambassador Nanclus, Federation Starfleet Colonel Patrick West, Lieutenant Valeris, Yeomen Burke and Samno, the commandant of Rura Penthe and a prisoner there named Martia. The conspiracy's goal was to undermine the peace process and ignite a war between the Empire and the Federation that each side's members in the conspiracy believed their nation destined to win. (TOS movie: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

Given Cartwright's prior history with Section 31, some have speculated that this was also a Section 31 operation, although no evidence has surfaced to confirm this. "

Interesting...I'm not the only one who thinks Admiral Cartwright was involved in section 31.

Ummm.... OK. And... ?