He has also demonstrated, in a very emphatic fashion, his willingness to forego his morality in favor of pragmatism. So his decision in this case is oddly dichotomic; the practical thing to do, and the thing which benefits the UFP most, is to let the KE steamroll the Cardies - however, in this case (as opposed to other cases) he allows his morality to overrule those considerations.Reliant121 wrote:he has a pretty darn strong moral conscience.
If Worf hadn't been on the station Sisko would never have known the Klingons' intentions beforehand - remember him getting pissed with one of Mogh's old friends to get the information out of him?Deepcrush wrote:I don't think Sisko's actions would have changed much without Worf. Sisko is the kind of man who picks a path and then thats just it.
and he was there only because the Enterprise-D had been destroyed by Lursa and B'Tor...Captain Seafort wrote:If Worf hadn't been on the station Sisko would never have known the Klingons' intentions beforehand - remember him getting pissed with one of Mogh's old friends to get the information out of him?Deepcrush wrote:I don't think Sisko's actions would have changed much without Worf. Sisko is the kind of man who picks a path and then thats just it.
I have to disagree. They would have known the minute the Klingon fleet left DS9 and ran towards Cardassian space. Its more of an issues of when they would have found out.Captain Seafort wrote:If Worf hadn't been on the station Sisko would never have known the Klingons' intentions beforehand - remember him getting pissed with one of Mogh's old friends to get the information out of him?Deepcrush wrote:I don't think Sisko's actions would have changed much without Worf. Sisko is the kind of man who picks a path and then thats just it.
Wrong, methink. You cloak and THEN you go. That'll be what they'd have done.Deepcrush wrote:I have to disagree. They would have known the minute the Klingon fleet left DS9 and ran towards Cardassian space. Its more of an issues of when they would have found out.Captain Seafort wrote:If Worf hadn't been on the station Sisko would never have known the Klingons' intentions beforehand - remember him getting pissed with one of Mogh's old friends to get the information out of him?Deepcrush wrote:I don't think Sisko's actions would have changed much without Worf. Sisko is the kind of man who picks a path and then thats just it.
To me, the WotW eps were where we get to see Sisko fail in his decisions and by his speech to Gowron/Founder Martok... we also see that he was very unwilling to admit it as such.
I said they wouldn't have known beforehand - i.e. in time to warn the Cardies. Given how badly the Cardies got hammered, even with Sisko's warning and therefore presumably at least partially mobilised and deployed to war stations, imagine what would have happened if the Klingons had hit them while they were conducting routine peacetime deployments (albeit probably at a heightened altert state).Deepcrush wrote:I have to disagree. They would have known the minute the Klingon fleet left DS9 and ran towards Cardassian space. Its more of an issues of when they would have found out.
Actually... when you think about it, the military was probably somewhat mothballed, as they just lost control over the civilian government. So ships probably were manned by skeleton crews, etc.. during the "transition" of military leadership, to make sure everybody is loyal to the Detapan Council first, and Centra Command second.Captain Seafort wrote:I said they wouldn't have known beforehand - i.e. in time to warn the Cardies. Given how badly the Cardies got hammered, even with Sisko's warning and therefore presumably at least partially mobilised and deployed to war stations, imagine what would have happened if the Klingons had hit them while they were conducting routine peacetime deployments (albeit probably at a heightened altert state).Deepcrush wrote:I have to disagree. They would have known the minute the Klingon fleet left DS9 and ran towards Cardassian space. Its more of an issues of when they would have found out.
Sisko didn't notify the CU until the Klingon fleet left the station. So the time wouldn't have changed.Captain Seafort wrote:I said they wouldn't have known beforehand - i.e. in time to warn the Cardies. Given how badly the Cardies got hammered, even with Sisko's warning and therefore presumably at least partially mobilised and deployed to war stations, imagine what would have happened if the Klingons had hit them while they were conducting routine peacetime deployments (albeit probably at a heightened altert state).
Very unlikely as that would have required the military to shut down almost over night. Plus, when you're at risk of civil war or a government collapse, most commanders would be more concerned with preparing for battle then retiring.SolkaTruesilver wrote:Actually... when you think about it, the military was probably somewhat mothballed, as they just lost control over the civilian government. So ships probably were manned by skeleton crews, etc.. during the "transition" of military leadership, to make sure everybody is loyal to the Detapan Council first, and Centra Command second.
I don't think it would have been shut down over night. Just... just a little undermanned. There HAD to be a cycling process of the command structure, and fielding out Centra Command-sympatisers. That'd have been Dukat's plan, in order to make sure the Fleet doesn't wage a civil war against itself.Deepcrush wrote:Very unlikely as that would have required the military to shut down almost over night. Plus, when you're at risk of civil war or a government collapse, most commanders would be more concerned with preparing for battle then retiring.SolkaTruesilver wrote:Actually... when you think about it, the military was probably somewhat mothballed, as they just lost control over the civilian government. So ships probably were manned by skeleton crews, etc.. during the "transition" of military leadership, to make sure everybody is loyal to the Detapan Council first, and Centra Command second.
The thing is that Dukat didn't really show a plan. He switched sides along with most of the CU's military. Open civil war was avoided because of this. Its just as likely they would have set their troops away to prevent bloodshed so the border would have been even protected. Add this to how the CU was able to stem the KE's advance in just a few days may show this to be the case. The outer colonies were over run but none of the major planets were lost. Showing the KE wasn't able to advance against the defenses in place.SolkaTruesilver wrote:I don't think it would have been shut down over night. Just... just a little undermanned. There HAD to be a cycling process of the command structure, and fielding out Centra Command-sympatisers. That'd have been Dukat's plan, in order to make sure the Fleet doesn't wage a civil war against itself.
The most common mistake when people think of civil war is the belief that the rebelling side has no access to weapons. Remember that the crews of those ships came from somewhere. Most civil wars are started by parts of the military fighting other parts. Also remember that the over throw was VERY quick. About two or three weeks from start to completion. Dukat, leader of the Second Order and one of the most loyal Cardassians you'll find, changed sides. If he took his forces with him, then those civilians would have had the support of the second most powerful faction within the CU. Since Dukat had many loyal to him from other Orders, its likely they changed side with him.SolkaTruesilver wrote:I still wonder how the civilian resistance movement managed to beat Centra Command... I mean, what can civilians do against a Keldon-class warship?
Now, this is something I always pondered.Deepcrush wrote: Dukat, leader of the Second Order and one of the most loyal Cardassians you'll find, changed sides. If he took his forces with him, then those civilians would have had the support of the second most powerful faction within the CU. Since Dukat had many loyal to him from other Orders, its likely they changed side with him.
In the end, the military may have just sat out the uprising to avoid having to fight its own people.
No, he was a military advisor to the new government, which made him considerably more influential.SolkaTruesilver wrote:Why is GUL Dukat (a Gul) more influential than when he was Legate? Wasn't he the top dog of the Military post-civil overthrow?
Except that he could not send Ziyal away while being the military advisor, and he could before.Captain Seafort wrote:No, he was a military advisor to the new government, which made him considerably more influential.SolkaTruesilver wrote:Why is GUL Dukat (a Gul) more influential than when he was Legate? Wasn't he the top dog of the Military post-civil overthrow?
Who would you consider more influential? A Major General commanding a random infantry division, or a Colonel who has the President's ear?
The security of his position - i.e., how guaranteed Dukat was to have the same position when woke up the following morning - doesn't necessarily correlate with the influence of that position. It just means that somebody else may wield that influence sooner.SolkaTruesilver wrote:Except that he could not send Ziyal away while being the military advisor, and he could before.
"My position isn't nearly as secure as it was during the Occupation"
Aside from Deep's points, how useful is a Keldon-class when the arguments are being decided on a house-to-house or street-to-street basis?SolkaTruesilver wrote:I still wonder how the civilian resistance movement managed to beat Centra Command... I mean, what can civilians do against a Keldon-class warship?
Don't starship phasers can fire with Stun? The Enterprise did it once, if I remember.Mikey wrote: Aside from Deep's points, how useful is a Keldon-class when the arguments are being decided on a house-to-house or street-to-street basis?
