Ship of the week: Breen frigate

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:30 am

Its impossible to bebate which is better but we know both can be good and bad.

One plus side for organic is that you may be able to grow ships rather fast and they heal themselves when injured.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:39 pm

Its impossible to bebate which is better

Er...no, its quite simple really.
Put simpley:
Can biological systems take the place of shields? What about armour? Computers? Power generation? Life support? Nuclear weapons? Laser guns?
Anything that organic tech can do, artificial tech can do far better.
Also, there are a host of weaknesses and problems which would plague a bio-ship that wouldn't even be considrerd by the makers of a mechanical ship.
Organic stuctures are chemicaly reactive.
They are feeble in comparison to metals.
They require a constant stream of nutrients.
They will, by necesity, be semi-permiable.

If I can quote from Mike Wong's website for a moment:
"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

One plus side for organic is that you may be able to grow ships rather fast

It would take far less time to build a robot than it would take for a human fetus to develope.

and they heal themselves when injured.

So? They're far easier to damage in the first place, and what would damage an organic vessel wouldn't even scratch a mechanical ship.
And at least metal dosen't get infections.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:29 pm

Anything that organic tech can do, artificial tech can do far better.

In universe evidence please?

The breen seem to have a low level understanding of this tech and it work ok for them.

Can biological systems take the place of shields?

Unknown

What about armour?

Yes. 8472: Ships survive multibal hits from a Borg cube. Something almost no metal ship can do.

Computers?

Hmm a biological computer... goo were have I seen one of those... oh thats right, between the ears of almost every living creature on this planet far more advanced than anything yet built by man.

Power generation?

We make our own powerf through consumption of food. They could make power through the consuption of something else that makes a lot of power.

Life support?

Yeah if only biological things could create life giving enviroments... of wait they do.

Nuclear weapons?

Maybe not nukes but who knows what else they could do.

Laser guns?

You did see 8472 blow up that planet didnt you? They seem to have the weapons thing down better than almost anyone.

Anything that organic tech can do, artificial tech can do far better.

Like what?

Organic stuctures are chemicaly reactive.

Ones that we know are who knows what there bio tech is like. And metal is reactive to.

They are feeble in comparison to metals.

Not according to canon.

They require a constant stream of nutrients.

Yeah sure I'll give you that one. There is no evidence of it but it does make sense.

They will, by necesity, be semi-permiable.

parts of it may be but they could make a skin that is not. It does not really seem to be a big draw back.

So? They're far easier to damage in the first place, and what would damage an organic vessel wouldn't even scratch a mechanical ship.

No it isnt. If anything it is shown to be harder to damage.

And at least metal dosen't get infections.

The TNG episode with the officer exchange. Something was eating the metal of the ship.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:32 pm

And at least metal dosen't get infections.

The TNG episode with the officer exchange. Something was eating the metal of the ship.[/quote]
Matter of Honor

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:07 pm

In universe evidence please?

Sorry, you're the one making the claim that bio-ships are on a par, or better than, mechanical ships. Ergo, you must provide the evidence. It is simple comon sense that no natural organism can surpass mechanical replacements, so we can safely asume that the same holds true in Trek, as we have yet to see contradictory evidence.
Name one instance we have ever seen a bio-ship that is superior to a mechanical ship, that isn't from another dimension.

The breen seem to have a low level understanding of this tech and it work ok for them.

Proof that their entire ships are mechanical, rather than just using organic components?

Unknown

Concession accepted.
We have never seen evidence of this, ergo we can safely assume that the answer is a 'no'.

Yes. 8472: Ships survive multibal hits from a Borg cube. Something almost no metal ship can do.

1) We have seem mechanical ships survive multiple hits from cubes.
2) You cannot use 8472 as a yardstick, they are from a completely seperate dimension.
And anyway, wasn't one of them killed in a colision with Voyager?

Hmm a biological computer... goo were have I seen one of those... oh thats right, between the ears of almost every living creature on this planet far more advanced than anything yet built by man.

Nope. Science surpasses that as well with the discovery of quantum computing, which operates on a smaller scale than organics have ever been seen to do.

They could make power through the consuption of something else that makes a lot of power.

Proof that they could generate enough power to put them at a par with M/AM ships? I know of nothing that would generate that much power through biological functions.

Yeah if only biological things could create life giving enviroments... of wait they do.

Er, true. I wasn't thinking when I wrote that.

Maybe not nukes but who knows what else they could do.

Have we ever seen a bio-weapon with the power of a simple nuke? Nope.
And I was being generous by not comparing them to photon torpedoes. Let alone quantums or transphasics.

You did see 8472 blow up that planet didnt you?

Indeed, it seemed to be a chain reaction weapon of some sort. And then Voyager survived a direct hit.
And then there's the fact that you cannot use 8472 to prove the superiority of bio-ships.

Like what?

Name anything.

Ones that we know are who knows what there bio tech is like.

Yes, ones that we know of. And since we have no evidence that Trek bio-ships are not chemicaly reactive, we can safely assume they are similar to terrestrial systems.

And metal is reactive to.

Of course it is. But nowhere near as reactive as organics.

Not according to canon.

By all means, post evidence.
Evidence that isn't related to the creatures from the dimension of water.

There is no evidence of it but it does make sense.

No, there is no evidence against it, ergo we can assume that it functions similar to terrestrial systems.

parts of it may be but they could make a skin that is not.

Er, by necesity a cell must be semi-permiable to get nutrients.

It does not really seem to be a big draw back.

What? You really don't see the drawback in sitting in a ship with millions of microscopic holes in it? Just pray that your enemies don't use chemical weapons...

No it isnt.

Yes, it is.

If anything it is shown to be harder to damage.

By all means, show me.

The TNG episode with the officer exchange. Something was eating the metal of the ship.

Hmm, you're right there.
Change that to 'Its harder for metal to get infections.'

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:29 pm

I agree with the fact that mechanical devices are for nearly all senses better than organic ones - given a certain level of technological advancement. The reason for this is simple - mechanical things can simulate organic compenants (apart from the brain, admittedly), making them on par with organic ships, but can then add on other things that organic ships wouldn't possess.

The thing that is absurd is...

Hmm a biological computer... goo were have I seen one of those... oh thats right, between the ears of almost every living creature on this planet far more advanced than anything yet built by man.
Nope. Science surpasses that as well with the discovery of quantum computing, which operates on a smaller scale than organics have ever been seen to do.

Nothing to this day has surpassed the human brain for advancement or ability. Science does not surpass the human brain, and quantum computing hasn't even been invented yet! And it sure as hell hasn't worked on the few prototypes thanks to the Heisenberg Principle. However, nothing now, or in Trek-universe, surpasses a biological brain - as neurons have never ever, no matter how far in the future, been artificially made. Data has a flow of positrons, for example, and as far as we know, he isn't sentient or self-aware - even if he tells us he is. We can program a computer to say "I am self-aware", for example, but it doesn't mean it is. The fact that he has programs means he isn't self-aware.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:30 pm

Teaos wrote: In universe evidence please?

The breen seem to have a low level understanding of this tech and it work ok for them.

The Breen's one advantage was their energy draining weapon, once that was negated they started dropping as easily as any other ship.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:35 pm

Sorry, you're the one making the claim that bio-ships are on a par, or better than, mechanical ships. Ergo, you must provide the evidence. It is simple comon sense that no natural organism can surpass mechanical replacements, so we can safely asume that the same holds true in Trek, as we have yet to see contradictory evidence.
Name one instance we have ever seen a bio-ship that is superior to a mechanical ship, that isn't from another dimension.

You cant just discount 8472 becuase they are from a different area. They are able to operate in our galaxy thus they must follow the same laws of physics. If they didnt they counldnt function thus anything they can do should be able to be done by others in our galaxy.

1) We have seem mechanical ships survive multiple hits from cubes.
2) You cannot use 8472 as a yardstick, they are from a completely seperate dimension.
And anyway, wasn't one of them killed in a colision with Voyager?

1) I said almost. I was just showing that they are just as good if not better than a lot of the ships we see.
2)Not sure about the one being destroyed.

Nope. Science surpasses that as well with the discovery of quantum computing, which operates on a smaller scale than organics have ever been seen to do.

That is highly theoretical with almost no real world application of it. If you get to throw around words like that I get to say the bio ships can be telepathic and have other theoretical mind powers.

Proof that they could generate enough power to put them at a par with M/AM ships? I know of nothing that would generate that much power through biological functions.

They could have organic engines that use M/AM. All they would need is a magnetic field which organic components can produce. Or they could have a totaly different proposuon system which doesnt need a lot of power.

Name anything.

Beam weapons, ships hull, navigation, power/size ratio. Bioships are shown to be the equal or better of most ships.

Er, by necesity a cell must be semi-permiable to get nutrients.

Tree bark doesnt recive nutrients yet it acts like a skin.

What? You really don't see the drawback in sitting in a ship with millions of microscopic holes in it? Just pray that your enemies don't use chemical weapons...

Refer to the above tree bark example.

Yes, it is.

(This was in response to they are more easily damaged than metal) No they arent. Borg weapons did bugger all to them while they can eat through Federation ships.

Hmm, you're right there.
Change that to 'Its harder for metal to get infections.'

8472's biology was so advanced to destroyed Borg nanoprobes. It would seem that it is damn hard to give them an infection.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:39 pm

My knowledge of quantum computing is low, and I was merely going from what little I knew.

does not surpass the human brain, and quantum computing hasn't even been invented yet!

I said 'discovery', not 'invention'.
No, but is has been discovered. And it could theoreticaly operate on a smaller scale than organics.

And it sure as hell hasn't worked on the few prototypes thanks to the Heisenberg Principle.

Source?
And I have no idea what the Heisenberg principle is, or why it would stop this working? Could you briefly explain it?

Data has a flow of positrons, for example, and as far as we know, he isn't sentient or self-aware - even if he tells us he is.

How do you get that?
He seems perfectly self aware, and sentient to me.

We can program a computer to say "I am self-aware", for example, but it doesn't mean it is.

How do you define 'self aware'?
Self awareness is the understanding that one exists, which Data has and a modern computer does not.

The fact that he has programs means he isn't self-aware.

Why? Human brains are 'programmed' in one way. Does this mean we are not self-aware?

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:42 pm

There are many many different ways to judge self awareness or sentientness. I personally like the test of original thought. If one can come up with a truely original though they are sentient.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:46 pm

sentience, is not the same thing as self-awareness or sapience, so if people are debating something,its best that they all follow the same compass

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:05 pm

Sorry, Teaos. I didn't see your post there.

You cant just discount 8472 becuase they are from a different area. They are able to operate in our galaxy thus they must follow the same laws of physics.

Physics? Yes. Biology? No.

1) I said almost. I was just showing that they are just as good if not better than a lot of the ships we see.

You showed that a creature from a completely different dimension is just that. Not one from the Trek dimension, which is what I am debating. I fully accept that 8472 does seem more advanced than mechanical ships. What I am saying is that we have never seen such things in the 'normal' dimension.

If you get to throw around words like that I get to say the bio ships can be telepathic and have other theoretical mind powers.

Sure, that's quite possible, and I have no problem with that.
It is, after all, the only way they could get FTL communications.

They could have organic engines that use M/AM. All they would need is a magnetic field which organic components can produce.

And somewhere for the M and AM to react. And somewhere to store them. And someway for the energy to be transfered wherever necesary. And someway to keep the whole thing blowing up. And have you any proof that an organic creature could produce the magnetic field of a power which would be required?

Or they could have a totaly different proposuon system which doesnt need a lot of power.

Such as?

Beam weapons

PRoof that they could generate beams of equal power to mechanical ships?

ships hull,

Proof that there is an organic system that could equal a mechanical ship's hull?

navigation,

Proof that they could possibly detect something farther away than the imediate vicinity?

power/size ratio.

Proof?

Bioships are shown to be the equal or better of most ships.

Where was this shown?
If they were so good, you'd wonder why every race dosen't use these organic ships?

Tree bark doesnt recive nutrients yet it acts like a skin.

True, its made up of dead cells.
Would you armour a tank with bark? Nope, you'd use metal.

Refer to the above tree bark example.

True.

No they arent. Borg weapons did bugger all to them while they can eat through Federation ships.

Fine, proof that ships that aren't from another dimension can withstand the same?

8472's biology was so advanced to destroyed Borg nanoprobes. It would seem that it is damn hard to give them an infection.

Funny how Voyager managed to do just that.

I personally like the test of original thought. If one can come up with a truely original though they are sentient

Indeed. Data has been shown to come up with original ideas.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:13 pm

The Heisenberg Principle is the principle that particles/waves cannot have both their momentum and position measured. The act of observing something actually changes it. And this is the same in quantum computing. Two particles interact instantly over (theoretically) infinite distances [entanglement] - but it is to our knowledge (theoretically) impossible to stop them interacting with other particles, and to get their positions exactly right, because we can't know exactly where they are, without completely sacraficing the knowledge of their momentum.

So the Heisenberg Principle, dumbed down, is kind of like this:
You can meausure the momentum of a particle with high accuracy (high accuracy = high chance of getting it right, not actually meaning it is very close), but can only meausre the position of a particle with low accuracy (a low chance of getting it right).

But then you could do it vice versa - and meausure, with a high chance of getting it right, the position of a particle, but have no idea about its momentum.

What quantum computing actually allows us to do, however, is make things faster, not make things more intelligent, persay. Just because something gets smaller or faster, does not make it better or self-aware.

And regarding Data knowing that he exists... Does he? Does he really know? How can we ever know if actually inside his head he knows he exists? Or even that he actually 'thinks'? He thinks, maybe, as much as a computer - just working out, for example, what someone says, then using the most logical response for his databank. Data does not know that he exists. He's a computer, does he really have self-consciousness? I know that I am self aware, but Data does not. How really can he think? At what point was Soong sat there, just writing a load of programs and installing them, did Data suddenly say "I am self-conscious", and actually "thinks" with free will and not going by his programming? The Doctor, for example, uses Voyager's own computers to get around. Does that mean that Voyager is self aware, because Voyager runs the Doctor [let's take his mobile emitter out of the equation]? Similar to does it mean that Data's positrons run in such a way to make him think without requiring programming?

We're getting into a very ethical debate and it's completely subjective, and won't be answered.

But one thing is sure, and that is the the human brain is the most advanced technology now, and in the ST universe.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:21 pm

*Snip Heisenberg*

Okay, I'll just assume that means its impossible.

We're getting into a very ethical debate and it's completely subjective, and won't be answered.

True, it'll probably just end up like that transporter debate we had a while back.

But one thing is sure, and that is the the human brain is the most advanced technology now, and in the ST universe.

Conceeded.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:22 pm

Rochey wrote:And I have no idea what the Heisenberg principle is, or why it would stop this working? Could you briefly explain it?

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, interestingly enough postulated by Heisenberg, is referred to in 'Trek via the "Heisenberg compensators" of transporter systems. To use a comedic, but true, definition - the Heisenberg principle states that you can't tell where anything is. In more detail: on a subatomic level, there are two components of observation to be made about a particular particle - location and velocity. Because observation requires reflecting some type of quantum off the particle to be observed, the principle postulates that the more accurately you determine one of those components, the less accurately you can determine the other. I.e., the more you fine-tune the location observation, the more you artificially corrupt your observation of velocity; and vice verse.

And, by the way, even though I agreed with you on the superiority debate, I still think you're clinging to terrestrial principles of organic materials. As you said, we're talking about organic components which function normally in vacuum - I think there may be other concessions we have to make regarding the abilities of these "alien" organic materials.

And by appearance, the Breen have the right of it; some sort of hybrid, mating their organic tech with conventional design features.