Fighter or Fodder?

[Deepcrush]

But if the maquis use PT's on fighters, then why can't starfleet if its using the same model or an even better and larger model?

[Captain Seafort]

Also the phrase "full impulse" refers to a speed because that's the max speed they're supposed to go. If you actually operated at .8c you'd have some weird reletevistic stuff.

It's questionable whether relativity applies to Trek ships, given their use of subspace mass-lightening as part of the impulse drive. Nonetheless, "full impulse" can't refer to 0.25c as "quarter impulse" was ordered inside spacedock for the E-nil and Excelsior in ST3 and the E-A in ST6. In neither case was the observed speed even close to the 19000 kps it would have been if the order refered to speed.

As for on screen I bet there are a number of viewscreen battles that have taken place at those speeds. However once the special effects guys had the ability to actually show ships fighting the breaks were firmly applied, because you simply can't have the ships going much faster and still effectivley show them onscreen.

Visuals have always depicted ships moving at hundreds of m/s relative for every battle from ST2 onwards.

But I'm willing to allow that there be in universe reasons for doing what they do, I just ask you apply the same limitations to fighters (no photon torpedos). Yes maybe the heros did it once, but when the heros have to they can also go to higher impulse speeds. See how that works?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

But the high speed thing does explain the console nicely. Plus it means you need a lot less pilot training.

However, every battle we've seen has ships travelling at hundreds of m/s relative. At these speeds it would be much more sensible to quip a fighter with the fast reaction times allowed by a joystick rather than the precision of entering a course on a console.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I'm going to leave the speed stuff to you guys. As far as the console vs. joystick arguement joystick wins with me and just about every pilot. I've played flying games on a computer and between using the keyboard or the joystick I found that my response times are faster with the joystick. Leave console stuff to your gib, small craft should always have a joystick for the pilot.

[sunnyside]

I don't think flying by console is anything like flying by keyboard. I think you're passing navigation over to an AI. For example in voyager when the Maquis being trained by Tuvok were doing a holodeck simulation of running the voyeger bridge the guy at the con, when fighting some simulated romulin warbirds, didn't sit there tapping the consol the whole time. He selected an evasive manuvers something and started it. And then let the ship fly itself.

I'm pretty sure I've seen stuff like that elsewhere. At any rate pilots even in critical situations aren't hammering away on the console like a kid playing quake, they're slowly and deliberatly pushing buttons while the craft zips all over.

Anyway the point is that I think running the helm with a console is more like being a captain telling a pilot what to do. You tell the console to target that ship and keep my weapons on it while keeping me evasive and ideally out of their weapons arcs of fire. Not hitting wingmates, friendlies, avoiding being rammed, and such would also be handled automatically. This probably involves pushing one button to designate which ship to go after. The pilot is then free to pay attention to their tactical situation instead of white knuckled flying.


As for the speed thing full impulse=.25c could be fannon as I said. But the point is that ships are obviously capable of achieving speeds well over hundreds of meters pet second in many episodes where they need to get from point A to point B on impulse. The fact that they don't utilize this ability in combat, nor do they take advantage of weapon ranges longer than a hundred meters, is for visual effects. And while it makes sense why we'd rationalize it here, in the back of your head remember the real reason.

Anyway these Maquis with photon torpedos. When did that happen? I don't remember it, which I figured meant it was done once by the Heros in some special sort of circumstance. Were they doing this in a bunch of episodes? Actually just generally fill me in and preferably reference the episode(s).

[Captain Seafort]

I don't think flying by console is anything like flying by keyboard. I think you're passing navigation over to an AI. For example in voyager when the Maquis being trained by Tuvok were doing a holodeck simulation of running the voyeger bridge the guy at the con, when fighting some simulated romulin warbirds, didn't sit there tapping the consol the whole time. He selected an evasive manuvers something and started it. And then let the ship fly itself.

I'm pretty sure I've seen stuff like that elsewhere. At any rate pilots even in critical situations aren't hammering away on the console like a kid playing quake, they're slowly and deliberatly pushing buttons while the craft zips all over.

Anyway the point is that I think running the helm with a console is more like being a captain telling a pilot what to do. You tell the console to target that ship and keep my weapons on it while keeping me evasive and ideally out of their weapons arcs of fire. Not hitting wingmates, friendlies, avoiding being rammed, and such would also be handled automatically. This probably involves pushing one button to designate which ship to go after. The pilot is then free to pay attention to their tactical situation instead of white knuckled flying.

The point of using a joystick is that it's a lot more instinctive than a console (which is like using a keyboard - you'push buttons, not trying to push or pull the ship in the direction you want). This makes reaction times far quicker, and speed of reaction is vital in a dogfight.

As for the speed thing full impulse=.25c could be fannon as I said. But the point is that ships are obviously capable of achieving speeds well over hundreds of meters pet second in many episodes where they need to get from point A to point B on impulse. The fact that they don't utilize this ability in combat, nor do they take advantage of weapon ranges longer than a hundred meters, is for visual effects. And while it makes sense why we'd rationalize it here, in the back of your head remember the real reason.

Out of universe it's because you'd give people headaches if you depicted unrecognisable blurs zipping around the screen at a quarter lightspeed. If we want to analyse Trek tech from an in-universe point of view we have to suspend disbelief and accept that Trek ships move at a relative speed of hundreds of m/s while in combat.

Anyway these Maquis with photon torpedos. When did that happen? I don't remember it, which I figured meant it was done once by the Heros in some special sort of circumstance. If there were flights of Maquis ships in the big battles throwing photon torps all around let me know. Actually just generally fill me in and preferably reference the episode.

In "Preemptive Strike" Gul Evek complained that the Maquis "came at us with photon torpedoes and type-eight phasers". Assuming the ships in question were the same size as the ones depicted later in the episode and not Chakotay's much larger ship, he presumably meant micro-torpedoes, as those raiders are much too small to mount full-size torps.

[sunnyside]

The point of using a joystick is that it's a lot more instinctive than a console (which is like using a keyboard - you'push buttons, not trying to push or pull the ship in the direction you want). This makes reaction times far quicker, and speed of reaction is vital in a dogfight.

No my whole point (if you'd read that again), is that when flying by console you aren't telling the ship to go left or go right. You're telling it what you want to it achieve and letting it do the flying. Again in the example with Voyager the ship was probably doing barrel rolls and all sorts of stuff to try and keep away from the main guns on the warbirds, however all the guy at the helm did was push maybe three buttons at the start of the fight.

The reason being that the computer has a much much faster reaction time than you do, and can track large numbers of moving objects simultaniously.

In "Preemptive Strike" Gul Evek complained that the Maquis "came at us with photon torpedoes and type-eight phasers". Assuming the ships in question were the same size as the ones depicted later in the episode and not Chakotay's much larger ship, he presumably meant micro-torpedoes, as those raiders are much too small to mount full-size torps.

Well OK. Microtorpedos are common enough, but aren't the same thing as a full on torp. Some people here are talking about Maquis using full sized torpedos.

[Mikey]

The joystick may seem more intuitive to US, but WE are not 24th century spaceship pilots who have already been trained to fly by console to the point where it is second nature.

When I said that I would replace the joysticks with a console, I was not making a value judgement on either system. I simply thought (and think) that it would be easier to modify the helm contol system of the ship design rather than re-train EVERY pilot in Starfleet.

[Teaos]

I agree with Sunnyside that the majority of the time they just seem to enter commands not fly by the seat of their pants. Thus a consol would be better.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Maybe on a large ship, but in a dogfight, only a complete idiot lets the computer drive. And If the computers were so great why have organic pilots at all? Just have the captain give vocal commands, and have fighters be remote controlled by the larger ships. One thing a computer will never have is pure, raw instinct.

[Teaos]

You can't have remote control due to interference and Starfleet learned its lesson about AI in TOS era when it that Constitution went rouge and attacked the other ships.

[sunnyside]

I figure starfleet doesn't let drones do the full job because.

1. They've already run into a few races wiped out by intelligent machines they've created.

2. Network security is an arms race between those who want to break into systems and those wanted to secure them. In star trek I think it's obvious who is winning.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the above points.

Also there is the instinct and judgement thing. I figure pilots and their skills are still very important. Not having to pay attention to every little thing while flying frees them up to pay attention to what is going on and take advantage of it.

Plus have you ever played a racing game? Ever crash? Yeah. Granted real life pilots seem to manage fairly well, but we still get planes (and even moreso helicopters) crashing into each other now and then, and they aren't zipping around within maybe a hundred meters of large a swarm moving ships.

Plus the racers in that voyager episode all used consoles. And as I recal after the delta flyer got blown up, the second delta flier didn't have all the joysticks.

However if you want to simm with some people and fly into the 24th centuries "danger zone" I'm sure your CO will let you do it.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

A computer might compensate for pilot errors, but with small ship flying joysticks are the obvious choice. And the Delta Flyer II had less reliance on joysticks and dials so that it would be easier to fly for those more used to console flying, but the main flight sticks were still there.

[sunnyside]

Eh. First off sorry about the very end of my last post. The tone got a little flamish.

At any rate I don't think I'm going to be able to convice the Chakat that it's better to let the AI do most of the piloting so that the pilot can focus on the big picture along with their tactical systems, instead of sending them out there in a high speed craft with a joystick to go buzz some capships. Nor that maybe there is a reason besides lazy pilots that every craft of every race I can think of uses consoles, even craft made for racing and maneouvering,

Although one last point, since i just thought of it. Notice how people go flying when their ship takes a hit or another ship blows up nearby? Even strapped in tight that's probably very very bad news for a pilot flying a ship on manual. Modern day fighter pilots don't have to worry about that so much because they don't have shields and if you take a hit you're pretty well already out of the fight, and are probably high enough that you'll have time to get your bearings before you have to try and get the plane under control or eject.


Anyway I'm still curious about full sized photon torps on fighters, or Runabouts(which are bigger) or Maquis Raiders (which are bigger still).

[Captain Seafort]

The point of using a joystick is that it's a lot more instinctive than a console (which is like using a keyboard - you'push buttons, not trying to push or pull the ship in the direction you want). This makes reaction times far quicker, and speed of reaction is vital in a dogfight.

No my whole point (if you'd read that again), is that when flying by console you aren't telling the ship to go left or go right. You're telling it what you want to it achieve and letting it do the flying. Again in the example with Voyager the ship was probably doing barrel rolls and all sorts of stuff to try and keep away from the main guns on the warbirds, however all the guy at the helm did was push maybe three buttons at the start of the fight.

The reason being that the computer has a much much faster reaction time than you do, and can track large numbers of moving objects simultaniously.

You're still having to do too much thinking ("right, evasive pattern Delta-6, that's that button, then that button, then that button, right, I've got some free time now" vs "AHHH!! Ship! *tugs joystick*"). Regardless of how advanced the computers are, man himself has not changed by the time of Trek, and it will still be easier to control a ship when you've got some sort of physical feedback.

As for the idea of giving orders then concentrating on other things, two problems with it. 1) Computer derived manoeuvers are recognisable as such, and threfore easier for a targeting computer to plot. 2)In a dogfight the situation can change in the blink of an eye, either rendering the sequence you've just entered apoor choice, or not giving you time to set a new sequence. A stick doesn't have those disadvantages. AS for dealing with the tactical systems, either have a fixed-axis forward phaser, or a helmet mounted sight that aims the phaser where you're looking, with the trigger mounted on the stick.

[Teaos]

You're still having to do too much thinking ("right, evasive pattern Delta-6, that's that button, then that button, then that button, right, I've got some free time now" vs "AHHH!! Ship! *tugs joystick*"). Regardless of how advanced the computers are, man himself has not changed by the time of Trek, and it will still be easier to control a ship when you've got some sort of physical feedback.

Thats why you get trained. A lot of that stuff becomes instinctive. It's like when you dial a phone number a lot. You dont even need to think about it you just dial.