Re'deridex

[Granitehewer]

I read in the non-cannon starship spotter (which clearly predates the movie ST:NEM by the way) that the romulans were in the process of refitting their warbirds, and i think that due to the sheer number that the empire seems to employ that this would make sense, of course we don't ''know'' IU if the d'deridex was refitted or improved since its first appearance, but it'll be nice to postulate that due to exposure to the galaxy class,vor'cha and dominion vessels that something was tinkered with...and i don't just mean commander donatra, boom boom!
Anyone have any ideas as to the strength or a good ditl value for a d'deridex circa several years post Dominion War?
granite aka pete

[Granitehewer]

oh come on, i'll even dance the 'milkshake' song!

[Sionnach Glic]

We've no real idea on just where Romulan weapons development is going, so anything would just be a very wild guess.

[Lazar]

You love those DITL strength values, don't you?

[Granitehewer]

only because they remind me of your eyes...........
and why not, the ditl strength values permeate many a debate and even are used as cannon in some older threads eg romulan fleet strength, number of centaurs etc

[Deepcrush]

Well, there may have been ideas in the past but now with NEM. We know where the RSE took their R&D. The Norexan class medium cruiser. Lighter ships with a rather impressive amount of firepower. Though what the RSE needs to do is work on better armor and shields. Dispite their weapons and cloak tech. Their ships are shamefully under powered in shields and I think they use paper for their hulls.

[Granitehewer]

the valdore may compliment rather than replace the d'deridex......

[Duskofdead]

The Romulans do not seem to have tremendous difficulty in spying on the technical details of, or even stealing, Federation ships. Additionally they took possession of former Federation territory during the war (recapturing it from the Dominion), and in DS9 they were even discussing the transfer of Federation hospital ships to the Romulans. Taken together, the Romulans probably have anywhere from a "very good" to "virtually complete" picture of Federation technology. I'm sure at any given time the Federation has secrets the Romulans are unaware of, but in terms of general technology seen in use, it doesn't seem like the Federation has a great deal of closely guarded technical secrets from the Romulans.

I've always suspected the reason we don't see bigger (or faster) Romulan advances in ship design or refits is probably internal and cultural rather than anything else. The race they seem to be most closely comparable to in Trek terms is the Cardassians: empire minded, slightly paranoid, xenophobic races obsessed with espionage and control of public loyalty. Both have unstable central governments (the inconsistent policy of the Cardassians towards the Federation and Bajor prior to DS9, and their government overthrow and dissident movements throughout DS9, and Shinzon's citing of frequent government changes on Romulus) which is perhaps what you expect to see in regimes held in power through fear and intimidation and military control rathern than public support. It is not really what you expect to see in large, stable powers with confidence in their assured strength.

I've always thought the Romulans and Cardassians simply adopted different solutions to the same problems. Whereas the Cardassians took a very practical approach to their self-analysis as internally unstable and externally threatened by focusing on disruption of threats through subversion and espionage and mass production of inferior military hardware, the Romulans took the other fork in the road of manuevering enemies into weakened states through espionage (note their repeated attempts to affect the balance of power by attempting to subvert enemy alliances and galactic politics, as opposed to the Cardassian approach of terror tactics, torture and infiltration) and an attempt to appear strong both internally (towards their own people) and externally through the production of smaller numbers of very large, very imposing, visually intimidating starships. I suspect both of them either as a result of internal instability, lack of resources or lack of the internal organization to make best use of their resources, cannot match the Federation or Klingon empires in industrial capacity and almost certainly cannot match the Federation in sustained innovation of new technologies.

Their similarity of tactics to me implies hidden weakness, rather than hidden strength, on the part of the Romulans. It's just that whereas the Cardassians deal with their problems in a straightforward blunt and often hands-on fashion, everything about the Romulan response is subtlety and looking at the bigger picture. The Cardassians would plant an agent to blow up a Federation-Klingon joint base. The Romulans would try to get the Federation and Klingons to fight each other.

To make a longer story shorter... I believe that any "surprising" lack of innovation or upgrading of military hardware by the Romulans is because they can't (for a variety of reasons) more than because they won't or haven't gotten around to it. It is rather difficult to keep upgrading your military if 75% of your focus is preventing the next government overthrow or rebellion.

[Deepcrush]

The Romulans do not seem to have tremendous difficulty in spying on the technical details of, or even stealing, Federation ships. Additionally they took possession of former Federation territory during the war (recapturing it from the Dominion), and in DS9 they were even discussing the transfer of Federation hospital ships to the Romulans. Taken together, the Romulans probably have anywhere from a "very good" to "virtually complete" picture of Federation technology. I'm sure at any given time the Federation has secrets the Romulans are unaware of, but in terms of general technology seen in use, it doesn't seem like the Federation has a great deal of closely guarded technical secrets from the Romulans.

I'm sure there are a lot of med ships that have the UFP's secrets on board...

In truth the Romulans may have spies but so does everyone else. They may also have a good idea of the UFP's tech level but to say "virtually complete" is just a joke. If it were otherwise then the Romulans would have been upgrading their shields and armor to match, which they haven't.

I've always suspected the reason we don't see bigger (or faster) Romulan advances in ship design or refits is probably internal and cultural rather than anything else. The race they seem to be most closely comparable to in Trek terms is the Cardassians: empire minded, slightly paranoid, xenophobic races obsessed with espionage and control of public loyalty. Both have unstable central governments (the inconsistent policy of the Cardassians towards the Federation and Bajor prior to DS9, and their government overthrow and dissident movements throughout DS9, and Shinzon's citing of frequent government changes on Romulus) which is perhaps what you expect to see in regimes held in power through fear and intimidation and military control rathern than public support. It is not really what you expect to see in large, stable powers with confidence in their assured strength.

The problem for the RSE is that they are the border between first and second rate powers. They're no match for either of the two super powers (KE and UFP). However they're more then a match for any second rate power (Breen, Cardis, etc). If the CU ever got its hands on the resources that the RSE has I would bet they'd replace the RSE as the third superpower.

I've always thought the Romulans and Cardassians simply adopted different solutions to the same problems. Whereas the Cardassians took a very practical approach to their self-analysis as internally unstable and externally threatened by focusing on disruption of threats through subversion and espionage and mass production of inferior military hardware, the Romulans took the other fork in the road of manuevering enemies into weakened states through espionage (note their repeated attempts to affect the balance of power by attempting to subvert enemy alliances and galactic politics, as opposed to the Cardassian approach of terror tactics, torture and infiltration) and an attempt to appear strong both internally (towards their own people) and externally through the production of smaller numbers of very large, very imposing, visually intimidating starships. I suspect both of them either as a result of internal instability, lack of resources or lack of the internal organization to make best use of their resources, cannot match the Federation or Klingon empires in industrial capacity and almost certainly cannot match the Federation in sustained innovation of new technologies.

I agree with this for the most part.

Their similarity of tactics to me implies hidden weakness, rather than hidden strength, on the part of the Romulans. It's just that whereas the Cardassians deal with their problems in a straightforward blunt and often hands-on fashion, everything about the Romulan response is subtlety and looking at the bigger picture. The Cardassians would plant an agent to blow up a Federation-Klingon joint base. The Romulans would try to get the Federation and Klingons to fight each other.

The Romulans could take on the weaked factions after the war. The CU couldn't. The CU has to be more direct in their actions.

To make a longer story shorter... I believe that any "surprising" lack of innovation or upgrading of military hardware by the Romulans is because they can't (for a variety of reasons) more than because they won't or haven't gotten around to it. It is rather difficult to keep upgrading your military if 75% of your focus is preventing the next government overthrow or rebellion.

Its not really surprising to me. In TOS they failed to really hold together a stable fleet and needed the KE to help them. In TNG they had some powerful ships but far to few of them. The RSE should be putting more effort into finding tech to help them catch up.

[Reliant121]

The Romulans need to get it out of their heads that they scare people with their huge ships. They arent useful against the major powers. The Klingons laugh in their faces, and the Feds are to powerful. The Romulans need to make small, fast dedicated warships with strong shields and hull. No frills combat ships, to hold on to the borders they have.

[Lazar]

I liked how the Starfleet Universe developed the idea of three generations of Romulan ships, the first being rather slow and primitive vessels like the BOP, basically relying on cloaks and plasma torpedoes; the second being a fleet of mothballed Klingon ships with birds painted on them; and the third being a sort of synthesis of the two, with big expansive designs that looked more reminiscent of the Warbird.

[Granitehewer]

ditto but its incongruent from what we know of the romulans leaving vulcan, their exploration of the beta quadrant and size of their empire to have such primitive ships

[Captain Seafort]

What's primitive about them? Sure the BoP only had fusion power, but it had warp drive, a cloak, and a weapon capable of severely smacking around the Federation's outposts and most powerful warships. That's not ptimitive.

[Granitehewer]

indeed like being able to render brittle the hardest substance known to federation scientists etc (balance of terror), but the suggestion of that vessel and the others in the starfleet universe of not having warp drive, is primitive, some of these non-cannon ships are explicitly stated as not having warp drive full stop, rather than say tactical warp drive capability in battles.....

[Captain Seafort]

I wouldn't call such ideas "primitive" - more like idiotic. Without warp, not only would they take years to cross the Neutral Zone, but teh Federation would have such strategic superiority that the Romulan War would never have been so close run that the Romulan Empire still existed afterwards.