Evolution and Creationism

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How do you believe the universe and life was formed? Creationism or the scientific explanations (including the Big Bang, abiogenesis and evolution)?

Old Earth Creationism
3
11%
Young Earth Creationism
0
No votes
Scientific Explanations
25
89%
 
Total votes: 28
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Evolution and Creationism

Post by Tiberius »

While reading THIS thread, I read a post by Varthikes in which he or she said that he felt that creationism made more sense than evolution.

This is an issue which I have studied (as a layman, admittedly) and discussed and debated for several years, and I thought it might be a good idea to have a discussion about this.

So, a few questions to prompt the debate:
  • Do you think that evolution or creationism is more likely?
  • Can you support your beliefs with evidence or arguments?
  • If you support creationism, do you support old earth creationism (that God created the world billions of years ago and prehistory occured much as science indicates), or young earth creationism (that the accounts presetned in Genesis are accurate).
A few notes: Firstly, it's often presented mistakenly that evolution includes the formation of the universe and the arrisal of life on Earth. However, the formation of the universe (as explained by science) is the Big Bang, which is agreed on by just about all astrophysicists (as far as I know). The arrisal of life on Earth is explained by Abiogenesis. In this thread, I'd like to discuss all of these.

Secondly, this is to be a friendly debate. Please keep things civil without turning to insults. This is not a religion bashing thread, nor is it a science bashing thread.

Thirdly, I know that the question of the existence of God does overlap with this and it is bound to come up in this thread sooner or later, but I'd like to keep the topic on evolution/creationism as much as possible.

Now, to answer my own questions.
  • Do you think that evolution or creationism is more likely? I am on the side of evolution.
  • Can you support your beliefs with evidence or arguments?There is a wealth of evidence for evolution, including transitional forms, and unlike creationism, evolution is falsifiable.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

The fundamental flaw in creationism/intelligent design is its ignorance of Occam's Razor. It has been demonstrated that evolution is a possible answer to the development of life as it currently exists through previous forms, and requires no external agency (i.e. God) to make it happen. Creationism requires that an external agency act to create life in such a way as to simulate evolution, thus adding unnecessary complexity.
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Post by Teaos »

Evolution is a much debated topic, as everyone can easily figure out by googling evolution debate. The main argument against it: its a theory, therefore not fact. This, however, is blatantly wrong as a scientific theory is very much different than what those using this argument think it is. A scientific theory is something backed by years of observation, experimentation, and clear-cut evidence, and is used to explain the workings of a natural law.

The theory of evolution is backed by the most evidence ever, in my opinion. The evidence that it is backed by is all around us, and it includes you and me. The sheer amount of fossil evidence shows that species of plants and animals have changed over time and have morphed into other species over time. In animals today, such as the whale, we can see pieces of their past forms, if you will, left behind, further proving the theory.

When Darwin first went to the Galapagos Islands, he saw that many of the species there were much different then their main-land equivalents, and by observing and taking detailed notes of all of the different species of animals, such as the finches, he saw that they had adapted to their specific island environment. For example, one of the species of finches had a beak that was used to get at seeds in a plant that was on that particular island. On another, there was a species that was adapted to eat cacti. The method by which the birds evolved is now known as adaptive radiation, if I remember correctly.

In Africa, many a fossil has been found of the ancestors of us, the species of human called Homo sapien. The most amazing find to date was the full skeleton of a 3-year-old Australopithicus, a member of the same family that the famous Lucy was a part of. So far, we have been able to trace the past of the human race back over 7 million years. Just the fossils and skeletons that we have found over the years of pre-humans and early humans, such has Homo habilis or Homo erectus, should be enough proof of evolution.

At yet, there are still religious fanatics that say that evolution is nothing but a theory, and as such can't be given off as fact. My response to this is learn what a scientific theory is. From dictionary.com:

scientific theory
n : a theory that explains scientific observations; "scientific theories must be falsifiable"
A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity.
http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...tific%20theory
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

As shown from dictionary.com, a scientific theory is the verified explanation of scientific observations. If you don't believe me, then look at the above posted links.

There is also the argument against evolution being taught in school and creatoinism being taught instead, or Intelligent Design be taught as a science as well as evolution. In America, Intelligent Design has been ruled out as a science because of the fact that it has no backing as a science, and as such it cannot be taught as one.

Creationism, which is just the teaching of Genesis I believe, should be ruled out as well. Why? Because all it is based off of is ancient texts that haven't even been proved by the existence of God. In fact, the whole seven day creation of Earth has been disproved by the study of geography and astronomy. The mere existence of dinosaurs that were alive over 65 million years before humans were around also disproves creationism, as it states that God created man on the sixth day, if I remember correctly, but humans actually appeared nearly 5 billion years after the creation of the Earth. I don't know if its just me, but that seems like a bit more than seven days.

Another reason for why creationism shouldn't be taught in schools: not everyone is christian. If this fact was true, then I would have no problem, and would be for it myself. But, as it is, not everyone is christian, and then those that aren't would probably be offended by the fact that they are being forced to learn about something that they probably disagree with.

I have to say, it feels good getting that out of my system.

Everyday we see evolution happening with bacteria. Whenever bacteria become immune to a certain type of antibiotic, they have evolved. Religious activists try and get around this by say that it is microevolution, and that it works differently than macroevolution. This is a very absurd argument because it is just evolution happening on a quicker timescale, as the smaller the lifespan, the faster the evolution.
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Post by Tiberius »

Teaos wrote:The main argument against it: its a theory, therefore not fact. This, however, is blatantly wrong as a scientific theory is very much different than what those using this argument think it is. A scientific theory is something backed by years of observation, experimentation, and clear-cut evidence, and is used to explain the workings of a natural law.
A good point, I've heard this many times myself.

HERE's a good website explaining it.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

With regards the so-called "microevolution" and "macroevolution" one might just as well say that the erosion of a few millimetres of rock is a different process from that which turns mountains into deserts. They are exactly the same process, continued for millions of years.
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Post by Teaos »

Exactly.

This is going to be a pretty borin g debate if we continue to agree with each other :lol:

Someone disagree with us :D
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

I hope the one sidedness of this poll hasn't scared them away. :lol:

To me creationism seems to be a fancier way of just shrugging your shoulders and going 'I just dont know'. At least science admits it dosen't know everything.
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Post by Teaos »

Well this is a Star trek forum. Chances are the huge majority are going to be more science based than faith.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Well, we have one voter in favour of creationism. Would be nice if he provided reasons for his choice.
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Post by Mikey »

OK here's my take (I voted for evolution, BTW:)

1) we cannot prove or disprove creaionism to anyone - it is a thesophical issue, and as such is based on FAITH - which requires no proof... in fact, jsut the opposite.

2) I grew as a conservative Jew, yet taught during my youth by a student of Menachim Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself - a Chassddic rabbi, considered by some groups to be an incarnation of the Messiah. I don't believe that, and I don't believe some of the very orthodox a/o fundamentalist views of my own old rabbi, but he taught me something very simple. That is as follows:
Religion explains "why;" science explains "how."
In other words, creationism and evolutionism DO NOT have to be mutually exclusive. G-d, the prime mover, the uncaused cause, or whatever you consider him/her/it to be, could very possibly have consciously and determinately set the evolutionary process into place. The only "leap of faith" one needs to accept this is to accept the fact that the book of Genesis is not to be taken literally, esp. in regard to the time frame given for creation. And, in fact, can we ascribe a human time frame to the acts of G-d?
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Post by Varthikes »

I believe that all physical creation was created as they were in the Genesis account. However, the way that most teach that account--that God created the Earth in 6 24-hour days--is wrong. The days described there are actually thousands of years long. The account was translated from Hebrew, and the Hebrew word translated "day" has a variety of meanings "a long time; the time covering an extraordinary event," as written by W. Wilson in Old Testament World Studies.

With that explained...
A scientific theory is something backed by years of observation, experimentation, and clear-cut evidence, and is used to explain the workings of a natural law.
And, the theory is tested by further observations and experiments and see if the predictions based on the theory is fulfilled. That is the scientific method. According to Astronomer Robert Jastrow in The
Enchanted Loom: Mind and the Universe
, scientists "have no clear-cut answer" to whether evolution is scientific "because chemists have succeeded in reproducing nature's experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how it happened."

Physicist H. S. Lipson Physics Bulletin, 1980, Vol. 3: "The only acceptable explanation is creation. We must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."

As for the "fossil evidence":

The fossil record is sketchy at best. It does not show the links between major types of living things.

It's written in The Bulletin of Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History (Jan. 1979, Vol. 50, "the geologic record does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution.

Zoologist Harold Coffin in the September/October 1975 issue of Liberty states that "if progressive evolution from simple to complex lifeforms is correct, the ancestors of the full-blown living creatures in should be found; but they have not been and scientists admit little prospect of ever finding them. A sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best."
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Post by Mikey »

I still say that evolution explains the mechanism, while creationism explains the cause.

I find it something of an inadvertent attack on my faith to describe creationism as a competing theory to evolution. Theories require proofs to be more than hypotheses, and my belief in the teachings of the Scriptures require no proof - that's what faith is.

BTW, evolution when examined minutely is not a gradual process - it is great instantaneous leaps in between long periods of waiting.
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Post by Granitehewer »

Hi
I'm the other old earth creationist :-)
But i believe religion is an intensely private affair, so won't dispute anyone elses' view.
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Post by Granitehewer »

ps am glad that everyone here can discuss things maturely, on other sites, certain folks can be derisive and juvenile about the beliefs of others, the only hint i'll give it that some people can be bigoted and do alot of 'wong'...
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Varthikes wrote:"because chemists have succeeded in reproducing nature's experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how it happened."
So scientists have suceeded in reproducing abiogenesis. They may not know the exact manner in which it happened but they proved that it can happen.
The fossil record is sketchy at best. It does not show the links between major types of living things.
On the contrary - Archeopterix (sp?) for example demonstrates an intermediate stage between diosaurs and birds.
It's written in The Bulletin of Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History (Jan. 1979, Vol. 50, "the geologic record does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution.


So there are gaps in the fossile record. So what?
Zoologist Harold Coffin in the September/October 1975 issue of Liberty states that "if progressive evolution from simple to complex lifeforms is correct, the ancestors of the full-blown living creatures in should be found; but they have not been and scientists admit little prospect of ever finding them. A sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best."


As mentioned above, "missing links" between various species have been found, and the presence of gaps in the fossil record is not only irrelevent but inevitable - each new missing link creates two new missing links.
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