Gamma mission sign in

[Mikey]

Okay...what does the real military do when they have a civilian ship or vehicle in their fleet?

On a permanent basis, attached to a military vessel, and having said privately-owned vehicle purposefully performing operations of/for that military? They don't do anything, because that doesn't happen. Letters of marque don't apply to parts of military groups/fleets.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Thirdly, they're not based on aircraft carriers, which is what this effectively is

Sure they can be. I've seen plenty of carrier planes at the EAA museum in Oshkosh.

Hmmm...I think I have found a possible solution. While doing a little research to try and find a way to make this work I came across this tidbit:

The United States Merchant Marine refers to the fleet of US civilian-owned merchant ships-operated by either the government or the private sector, that are engaged in commerce or transportation of goods and services in and out of the navigable waters of the United States. The Merchant Marine is responsible for transporting cargo and passengers during peace time. In time of war, the Merchant Marine is an auxiliary to the Navy, and can be called upon to deliver troops and supplies for the military.

Now, what if the Shadow Fox was scrapped. I know of storys were military scrap has been purchased by civilians. Craig Breedlove comes to mind as he's purchased a General Electric J47 engine from a F-86 Sabre for the first Spirit of America, a supercar built to break the land speed record, as well as a higher rated GE J79 engine originally from a F-4 Phantom for the Spirit of America - Sonic I. Art Arfons bought an F-104 Starfighter General Electric J79 17,500 lbf static thrust jet engine with four-stage afterburner, which Arfons purchased from a scrap dealer for $600 and rebuilt himself, over the objections of General Electric and the government, and despite all manuals for the engine being classified top secret, for his "Green Monster".

Now, what if the Shadow Fox was heavily damaged and scrapped, but the parts were salvaged by M'Real and rebuilt into a new Shadow Fox?

Will having this be an essentially new Shadow Fox in the Federation Merchant Fleet, being called up for assistance in this mission, satisfy everyone?

[Thorin]

It's not the fact it's the Shadowfox, it's the fact that you're wanting a privately owned ship on a SF ship, whereby the ship's captain has total jurisdiction and would control its activities anyway.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

It's not the fact it's the Shadowfox, it's the fact that you're wanting a privately owned ship on a SF ship, whereby the ship's captain has total jurisdiction and would control its activities anyway.

so what's your point?

[Mikey]

Sure, but we're not at war. Where would the 'Fox be based?

Honestly, I don't see what the drama is. The vasy majority seems to feel that it shouldn't be a privately-owned vessel; however, I specifically said - and NOBODY has objected - that it would still be yours to pilot. It would be your position aboard the Daystrom, as it were, to run the 'Fox. The only thing private ownership would get you is the ability to take off with it, which would still cause you to get hunted down whether you owned the damn thing or not.

[Sionnach Glic]

Sure they can be. I've seen plenty of carrier planes at the EAA museum in Oshkosh.

I meant that the vehicles themselves are not bought by civilians and then stationed on aircraft carriers.

And what about my other points?

Now, what if the Shadow Fox was scrapped. I know of storys were military scrap has been purchased by civilians.

I'll repeat myself, since you decided to ignore this point the previous time I brought it up:
How do you buy something in a society where there is no money?

Craig Breedlove comes to mind as he's purchased a General Electric J47 engine from a F-86 Sabre for the first Spirit of America, a supercar built to break the land speed record, as well as a higher rated GE J79 engine originally from a F-4 Phantom for the Spirit of America - Sonic I. Art Arfons bought an F-104 Starfighter General Electric J79 17,500 lbf static thrust jet engine with four-stage afterburner, which Arfons purchased from a scrap dealer for $600 and rebuilt himself, over the objections of General Electric and the government, and despite all manuals for the engine being classified top secret, for his "Green Monster".

How nice.
Now how about proving that Federation citizens can purchase ex-military craft, or even any craft for that matter?
We hear plenty of people talking about buying passage on a ship, but never buying a ship itself.

Now, what if the Shadow Fox was heavily damaged and scrapped, but the parts were salvaged by M'Real and rebuilt into a new Shadow Fox?

Then we're back to my other previous point, which you ignored. To quote myself:

It was built on a Federation vessel.
It was built by Federation personel.
It was built from a Federation fighter.
It was built with Federation parts.
It is based on a Federation ship.
It is crewed by Federation personel.
It performs Federation missions.

To me, that kinda indicates it's a Federation vessel, owned and run by Starfleet.

Will having this be an essentially new Shadow Fox in the Federation Merchant Fleet, being called up for assistance in this mission, satisfy everyone?

Since when was there a Federation Merchant Fleet? Every ship is owned by Starfleet.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Honestly, I don't see what the drama is.

Neither do I.

The vasy majority seems to feel that it shouldn't be a privately-owned vessel; however, I specifically said - and NOBODY has objected - that it would still be yours to pilot. It would be your position aboard the Daystrom, as it were, to run the 'Fox. The only thing private ownership would get you is the ability to take off with it, which would still cause you to get hunted down whether you owned the damn thing or not.

The real difference is the secondary character I wrote. If the Shadow Fox is a Starfleet vessel as opposed to one that's essentially privately owned I'm gonna have to essentially rewrite hir personality.

How do you buy something in a society where there is no money?

The same way you buy everything else

Let's see examples of money being used in the federation while we're at it:
Quark sold his damaged shuttle Quark's Treasure for scrap, in the Sol system, and was given enough to pay for passage back to Deep Space 9.
The Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX, a Federation member planet, apparently has a market economy. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")
When Kathryn Janeway told Kes the story of Tuvok and the Vulcan master he bought a meditation lamp from, she included the bit about how the price was doubled when he discoved they were with Starfleet. (VOY: "The Gift")

While Earth or humans in general seem to have abandoned money, it seems that other people in the federation haven't.

Now how about proving that Federation citizens can purchase ex-military craft, or even any craft for that matter?

When the Maquis started they seemed to have an ample supply of ex-military craft, and I doubt it was all stolen, Starfleet would've been sure to notice several dozen combat vehicles being stolen.

[Thorin]

The real difference is the secondary character I wrote. If the Shadow Fox is a Starfleet vessel as opposed to one that's essentially privately owned I'm gonna have to essentially rewrite hir personality.

Then make the choice - a civilian controlling a civilian ship who essentially follows round a fleet at a much slower pace, and can't be involved in any SF action, or a SF officer who regularly flies it while it belongs to SF and is harboured in the Daystrom.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

The real difference is the secondary character I wrote. If the Shadow Fox is a Starfleet vessel as opposed to one that's essentially privately owned I'm gonna have to essentially rewrite hir personality.

Then make the choice - a civilian controlling a civilian ship who essentially follows round a fleet at a much slower pace, and can't be involved in any SF action, or a SF officer who regularly flies it while it belongs to SF and is harboured in the Daystrom.

I'm trying to find a middle ground here.

And I've got to ask because I'm honestly wondering here. What do you(Thorin) have against me and my characters? This is the second time you've tried to get rid of one of them.

[Thorin]

I've not tried to get rid of any of your characters, the only time I have had a problem with your characters are when they impede on other aspects of RPing.

[Thorin]

And honestly, feel free to suggest some more middle ground, but it seems to me you've put yourself in a no win situation, in that you won't change your character, and just due to practicalities the Shadowfox couldn't follow a high speed and Starfleet missioned fleet - particularly as it's controlled by a civilian in a weird stalker way

[Mikey]

The real difference is the secondary character I wrote. If the Shadow Fox is a Starfleet vessel as opposed to one that's essentially privately owned I'm gonna have to essentially rewrite hir personality.

Why? Maybe I didn't read your bio closely enough - are you intending to play a civilian? If so, you would have no business performing Starfleet operations, no matter who owned the craft.

[Sionnach Glic]

The real difference is the secondary character I wrote. If the Shadow Fox is a Starfleet vessel as opposed to one that's essentially privately owned I'm gonna have to essentially rewrite hir personality.

Just make hir a Starfleet officer. No big deal. You can keep hir personality exactly the same, only the backstory needs tweaking.

The same way you buy everything else

Very true. Shi could buy the ship the same way Federation citizens buy everything else: by not buying anything.

Quark sold his damaged shuttle Quark's Treasure for scrap, in the Sol system, and was given enough to pay for passage back to Deep Space 9.

Quark isn't a Federation citizen. He probably sold it to them in exchange for Ferengi money, and used that to get back.

The Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX, a Federation member planet, apparently has a market economy. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

Quotes?

When Kathryn Janeway told Kes the story of Tuvok and the Vulcan master he bought a meditation lamp from, she included the bit about how the price was doubled when he discoved they were with Starfleet.

Fair point. But to contrast with that there are dozens of occasions in which money is shown not to exist.

While Earth or humans in general seem to have abandoned money, it seems that other people in the federation haven't.

Actualy, it seems more like certain members of the Federation still have a concept of money, but the Federation itself is a moneyless organisation. Most of these markets are probably small affairs, limited to the one system at best.

When the Maquis started they seemed to have an ample supply of ex-military craft, and I doubt it was all stolen, Starfleet would've been sure to notice several dozen combat vehicles being stolen

They probably did notice them being stolen. Hell, most of them were probably taken when the region was handed over to the Cardassians.

I'm trying to find a middle ground here

No you're not. You're just repeating your original position without changing it at all.
A civilian ship cannot be on the Daystrom for a variety of reasons. End of.

And I've got to ask because I'm honestly wondering here. What do you(Thorin) have against me and my characters? This is the second time you've tried to get rid of one of them.

No, this is the second time he's pointed out that something in your backstory makes no sense. There's a difference.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

What about the Baxial? Voyager carried that ship around all the time and it was owned by a civilian.

Just make hir a Starfleet officer. No big deal. You can keep hir personality exactly the same, only the backstory needs tweaking

You'd be the first to point out that a 10 year old wouldn't be a Starfleet officer.

And why can't a civie ship be on the Daystrom? Can anyone find me a quote or anything in canon that indicates that Starfleet ships can't haul civilian ships around?

[Reliant121]

Voyager, apart from being a mockery of trek, was in extreme circumstances. Daystrome is not.