10,000 posts

[Mark]

What if you don't believe there is a higher power of any kind?

Well, that's where working the 12 steps comes in. I'm an agnostic and I tend to shy away from "God" conversations, because I have no evidence either way. In step one I admitted I was powerless, and my life had become unmanageable (ie, nothing I did by myself got me off the stuff), in step two I came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. That was tough for me because I'm so skeptical. What convinced me it was possible were the athiests. The actively believe that there is no God of any kind, yet something restored them to sanity. And I learned that the unconditional love and support of other addicts in recovery IS a higher power itself.

[Aaron]

What if you don't believe there is a higher power of any kind?

I'll tell you what they told me at AA: "you don't have to believe in a higher power but you'll never quit drinking without one". I took a look around the meeting and noted that I was the only one who was both sober (and had been sober for two weeks) and figured that was bunk. In fact I see a couple of the guys who were at that meeting every once and a while and their still drunk.

I've been sober for three years, without jeebus or anything but belief in myself.

[Graham Kennedy]

What if you don't believe there is a higher power of any kind?

I'll tell you what they told me at AA: "you don't have to believe in a higher power but you'll never quit drinking without one".

I do believe in some higher powers than myself. I mean, Gordon Brown is a higher power. My boss at work is a higher power. The sun is more powerful than I am. I don't quite see how I can trust any of those things to cure an addiction, though.

[Aaron]

I do believe in some higher powers than myself. I mean, Gordon Brown is a higher power. My boss at work is a higher power. The sun is more powerful than I am. I don't quite see how I can trust any of those things to cure an addiction, though.

True enough, I never went back simply because that AA group was rather blatently trying to get people to turn to their version of god. If the system works for Mark, than more power to him. For me, I went and got professional help and employed the strategies she gave me. Ulimately I did the work though.

[Mark]

What if you don't believe there is a higher power of any kind?

I'll tell you what they told me at AA: "you don't have to believe in a higher power but you'll never quit drinking without one". I took a look around the meeting and noted that I was the only one who was both sober (and had been sober for two weeks) and figured that was bunk. In fact I see a couple of the guys who were at that meeting every once and a while and their still drunk.

I've been sober for three years, without jeebus or anything but belief in myself.

I've had similar experiences in NA. We've had a bunch of "christian fanatics" come into the rooms, preaching how only Jesus can save and heal, and so on and so forth. Every one of them is either back in jail, back on the street, or now dead. In my opinion, and this is what I tell the men I sponsor, is that while "a higher power" of some sort eventually is needed, you can't EVER give over responsability for their own recovery to anyone or anything.

People who insist that "they're" way is the only way are dangerous.

[Mark]

What if you don't believe there is a higher power of any kind?

I'll tell you what they told me at AA: "you don't have to believe in a higher power but you'll never quit drinking without one".

I do believe in some higher powers than myself. I mean, Gordon Brown is a higher power. My boss at work is a higher power. The sun is more powerful than I am. I don't quite see how I can trust any of those things to cure an addiction, though.

Well, it doesn't "cure" you. In step 3 I made a descision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him.

By surrendering control, I regain it. Make no sense until you actually experience it. For me, I'm a believer in destiney. People always say the future isn't set in stone, that we all have choices, but...the future reflects what those choices we will make are. So, if effect, I've surrendered to my fate and letting it take me where I'll go inevetebly anyway. And I've found the ride is alot smoother, at least until I try to snatch control back myself.

[Deepcrush]

Kira said it best, not sure if i'm word for word here. Seafort always seems to have the quotes so he can double check me on this.

"For those without faith, no explanation is good enough. For those with faith, none is needed."

Its a common enough idea though.

[Mikey]

Graham - I know you're an atheist; but you don't believe in an animus, some sort of individual consciousness aside form simple bioelectrical processes? As a Jew, I don't believe in the "soul" the same way as Christians do; but I do believe that there is more to my consciousness than merely the actions of neurotransmitters.

[IanKennedy]

Graham - I know you're an atheist; but you don't believe in an animus, some sort of individual consciousness aside form simple bioelectrical processes? As a Jew, I don't believe in the "soul" the same way as Christians do; but I do believe that there is more to my consciousness than merely the actions of neurotransmitters.

I don't see why such a construct has to be invented. There's no scientific reason to create such a theory, so why have the theory. If you start down that line the you get into the world of the Flying Spagetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

[Mikey]

Graham - I know you're an atheist; but you don't believe in an animus, some sort of individual consciousness aside form simple bioelectrical processes? As a Jew, I don't believe in the "soul" the same way as Christians do; but I do believe that there is more to my consciousness than merely the actions of neurotransmitters.

I don't see why such a construct has to be invented. There's no scientific reason to create such a theory, so why have the theory. If you start down that line the you get into the world of the Flying Spagetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Why it has to be invented? You're reaching the crux of the matter, which is: man invented G-d before G-d created man. In other words, religion/belief in the supernatural came about because of man's need to "know" that there were causes for the unexplainable, that there was something beyond. While we may have evolved beyond the need to explain thunder or poor hunting seasons, some of us still find it centering to have that framework around us - you, no doubt, have your own set of rituals and practices which serve the same function, though they may be in no way based on faith. In addition, a faith provides a cultural framework, similar to that of an ethnicity, which connects us to a societal group in a very common and ingrained anthropological manner.

[Deepcrush]

I myself have seen grown men break down and pray when times reach their worst. Sometimes people just need something or someone to lean on.

[IanKennedy]

Graham - I know you're an atheist; but you don't believe in an animus, some sort of individual consciousness aside form simple bioelectrical processes? As a Jew, I don't believe in the "soul" the same way as Christians do; but I do believe that there is more to my consciousness than merely the actions of neurotransmitters.

I don't see why such a construct has to be invented. There's no scientific reason to create such a theory, so why have the theory. If you start down that line the you get into the world of the Flying Spagetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Why it has to be invented? You're reaching the crux of the matter, which is: man invented G-d before G-d created man. In other words, religion/belief in the supernatural came about because of man's need to "know" that there were causes for the unexplainable, that there was something beyond. While we may have evolved beyond the need to explain thunder or poor hunting seasons, some of us still find it centering to have that framework around us - you, no doubt, have your own set of rituals and practices which serve the same function, though they may be in no way based on faith. In addition, a faith provides a cultural framework, similar to that of an ethnicity, which connects us to a societal group in a very common and ingrained anthropological manner.

Wow, where to start:

1) No I have no such rituals or practices, sh*t happens, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I simply live with it, try to learn from the experience and move on. I don't need something/someone to blame when things don't go my way, nor to praise when they go right.
2) There is nothing to fear in the unexplainable, it's simply that we don't understand it yet. For all we know we may never understand it. For those things that's simply the way the world is, no need to invent supernatural beings to get a fake explanation.
3) Faith can provide a cultural framework, but, on the whole it provides one that excludes or segregates the population into groups. For example I don't need to tell you that Jews believe that they are the chosen ones of God, and as such non-Jews are somehow not the same as them. This is a minor example, but it is very common and often leads to friction and even violence. Take the Spanish inquisition for example, what they did is south America almost puts Hitler in the shade. There are far better things to base a society on than religion, for example you could start with the US Declaration of Independence stated belief, that all men are created equal, or even the French 'Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité'. They are basically a grander statement of what I was taught growing up, which is to treat other people they way you would have them treat you.
4) and this one I've thought for a while now. Why do you type G-d?

[IanKennedy]

I myself have seen grown men break down and pray when times reach their worst. Sometimes people just need something or someone to lean on.

I too have seen such things. Surely a friend or something real is better than a 'being' that won't answer back.

[Sionnach Glic]

4) and this one I've thought for a while now. Why do you type G-d?

If I recall correctly, those of the Jewish faith aren't allowed to say/write the word 'god', hence the ommission of the s.

[Deepcrush]

I myself have seen grown men break down and pray when times reach their worst. Sometimes people just need something or someone to lean on.

I too have seen such things. Surely a friend or something real is better than a 'being' that won't answer back.

Sometimes it takes being alone in a place where hope seems to disappear. Its not for everyone, but for those that it is for it works well.