Would it really be so bad if...

[Teaos]

There are still 3500 ships out there on science and exploration missions. The whole thing isn't going to suffer detrimentaly like you're suggesting

I never said it would stop. I said it would slow down. Which over time would build up.

Not being able to inspect the spatial anomaly of the week is hardly going to be a major problem. Dumping the mult-role ships and turning the remaining science ships into pure science vessels will make up for it. Particularly now that they don't have to get pulled into combat zones.

You never know what you are going to find in those anomalys. The DNA double helix was first though of on a LCD trip, you never know where you may gain important information.

Except it's not fewer ships. Starfleet probably only had around that many combat-capable vessels originaly. And it's not spread over a larger distance, as they'll be watching the exact same amount of space as they were originaly.

But isnt part of your thing that you will only use combat ships for combat? And since you only have 1/4 of your fleet put over to combat you only have 1/4 of the ships to fight with.

[Sionnach Glic]

I never said it would stop. I said it would slow down. Which over time would build up.

And over time you could rebuild the science division to its initial strength, thus offsetting the problem.

You never know what you are going to find in those anomalys. The DNA double helix was first though of on a LCD trip, you never know where you may gain important information.

There are still more than enough ships left to check out anything of notice.

But isnt part of your thing that you will only use combat ships for combat?

Combat, patrols, defence, anti-piracy, power projection, etc.

And since you only have 1/4 of your fleet put over to combat you only have 1/4 of the ships to fight with.

Incorrect.
Firstly, I said 1/2 of the fleet, 3500 ships going by Graham's numbers.
Secondly, the entirety of Starfleet was not made up of combat capable ships in the first place, so I don't have half the combat ships available. In all probability, I have the same amount, I'm just dumping the multi-role bits.

[Teaos]

And over time you could rebuild the science division to its initial strength, thus offsetting the problem.

?

And where does the resources for these extra ships come from. You just assume you can snap your fingers and have more ships. Ships cost resources to build and to field.

There are still more than enough ships left to check out anything of notice.

You cant know that. The Federation is 8,000ly wide and and unknown width, by reducing the amount of ships you reduce the amount of things they came study.

Combat, patrols, defence, anti-piracy, power projection, etc.

My point there was with your more limited number of combat ships the pure science ships would be vunerable to attack and the combat ships would take longer to respond.

Incorrect.
Firstly, I said 1/2 of the fleet, 3500 ships going by Graham's numbers.
Secondly, the entirety of Starfleet was not made up of combat capable ships in the first place, so I don't have half the combat ships available. In all probability, I have the same amount, I'm just dumping the multi-role bits.

Wow 1/2 the fleet. Your crippling the S/E section even more than I thought.

You still will take twice as long to respond and assemble a fleet if your not using your other ships. You're still reducing the science capability of SF by a large margin. You're still needlessly powering up the fleet.

[Sionnach Glic]

And where does the resources for these extra ships come from. You just assume you can snap your fingers and have more ships. Ships cost resources to build and to field.

That's why I said over time.

You cant know that. The Federation is 8,000ly wide and and unknown width, by reducing the amount of ships you reduce the amount of things they came study.

And by freeing science ships from having to perform military operations such as patroling borders and guard duty, you keep roughly the same amount of total ships exploring as there were before.

My point there was with your more limited number of combat ships the pure science ships would be vunerable to attack and the combat ships would take longer to respond.

Why would it take longer? Unlike the TNG era, there's now going to be at least one combat vessel at every planet, and numerous vessels patroling the border and acting as a reserve force. If anything, it'd be quicker.

Wow 1/2 the fleet. Your crippling the S/E section even more than I thought.

The fact that the S/E section no longer has to perform military duties and have their ships comandeered for such missions offsets this. In the end, you'd probably still have the same amount of ships running S/E missions.

You still will take twice as long to respond and assemble a fleet if your not using your other ships.

Not really. As I pointed out before, the entirety of the original Starfleet was not combat capable. You'd probably have roughly the same amount of ships available for combat, perhaps a bit less. Though now that these ships will be 3-4 times stronger than their predecessors, you only need a third to a quarter as many ships as you did before. Problem solved.

You're still reducing the science capability of SF by a large margin.

Already adressed.

You're still needlessly powering up the fleet.

I don't like hearing about people dying just because their superior couldn't be bothered to properly arm and armour the ships they were on. If these measures had been in place during the Dominion War, casualties wouldn't have been anywhere near as high as they really were. I consider the continued existance of those thousands of lives to be worth a little inconvinience to the S/E department.

[Teaos]

That's why I said over time.

So? Your still making the fleet larger with no explanation over how you are doing it. You are making up resources that dont exist, the only thing you can do is redistribute.

And by freeing science ships from having to perform military operations such as patroling borders and guard duty, you keep roughly the same amount of total ships exploring as there were before.

SF doesnt do boarder patrol or guard duty 99% of the time so thats a moot point.

Why would it take longer? Unlike the TNG era, there's now going to be at least one combat vessel at every planet, and numerous vessels patroling the border and acting as a reserve force. If anything, it'd be quicker.

Yes each planet would have a defender so they would be less likely to be hit by pirates. But one ship is going to do sweet fu*k all to a small strike group of like 5 ships. In which case you are going to take ages to assemble a group to deal with that threat, and the ships that do come will leave there posts leaving great big holes in your defence.

The fact that the S/E section no longer has to perform military duties and have their ships comandeered for such missions offsets this. In the end, you'd probably still have the same amount of ships running S/E missions.

The only time S/E ships do military stuff is during wars and conflicts. The total time spent in open war has been a very small percent of the Federations existence, and even when it was at war it would seem the Dominion war is the only one where they commited their whole fleet rather than a local force.

Not really. As I pointed out before, the entirety of the original Starfleet was not combat capable. You'd probably have roughly the same amount of ships available for combat, perhaps a bit less. Though now that these ships will be 3-4 times stronger than their predecessors, you only need a third to a quarter as many ships as you did before. Problem solved.

The only ships in the existing SF I would not send into combat would be the Oberth and the Nova, and the latter could probably do a bit of damage to fighters and maybe even a BoP although not likely.

And I never questioned the strength of your new ships or their might as an assembled fleet, just the fact that since their numbers are so small compared to the existing fleet the take longer to respond and assemble.

I don't like hearing about people dying just because their superior couldn't be bothered to properly arm and armour the ships they were on. If these measures had been in place during the Dominion War, casualties wouldn't have been anywhere near as high as they really were. I consider the continued existance of those thousands of lives to be worth a little inconvinience to the S/E department.

If your messures had been in practice for the 100 years before the war SF would have less scientific knowledge, less space as their exploration would be cut down, less of a reputation as a peace making force. Which is why they are so big and strong, people join them because they a big and nice and cuddly, not just another space empire.

Your reactions to situations may also of cost more lives in total than the war. Chances are you and your military fleet would go kicking Romulan arse when they pull half the sh*t they do, the E-C would have never helped the Klingons making another war.

Hell relations in general would of been a lot worse over all making an alliance of the power less likely in general and the Dominion would have won the war costing even more lives and enslaving the rest.

[Sionnach Glic]

So? Your still making the fleet larger with no explanation over how you are doing it. You are making up resources that dont exist, the only thing you can do is redistribute.

No, I'm suggesting exploiting resources that have not yet been touched. There are a minimum of 150 planets in the UFP, probably thousands in total. Are you seriously suggesting that with all those planets the UFP couldn't find more resources somewhere?

Yes each planet would have a defender so they would be less likely to be hit by pirates. But one ship is going to do sweet fu*k all to a small strike group of like 5 ships.

Not if that one ship has a good chance of taking on the other attacking ships, as a competantly designed Starfleet ship could do.
And it should be noted that I said at least one, there'll probably be two or three per planet.

In which case you are going to take ages to assemble a group to deal with that threat,

Why do you keep insisting it takes ages? Placing ships at every planet would allow quicker response times than the Federation historicaly had. Look, let me put it simply for you:
Planet X gets attacked by 10 enemy ships. The local defence ships can't beat them, so they withdraw to the edges of the system. Ships in neighbouring systems respond to the distress signal and rendevous with the ships from Planet X on the edge of that system, before going in in force and kicking ass.
At most, it'd probably take a day or so, probably far less than that.

and the ships that do come will leave there posts leaving great big holes in your defence.

These "great big holes" will still be far smaller than the ones Starfleet historicaly had, given that they didn't seem to bother garrisoning ships at planets.

The only time S/E ships do military stuff is during wars and conflicts

Need I mention the amount of times we see ships getting pulled in to do patrol duty, investigate distress signals, and all sorts of tasks that should fall to the military?
We know Starfleet patrols its territory.

The total time spent in open war has been a very small percent of the Federations existence, and even when it was at war it would seem the Dominion war is the only one where they commited their whole fleet rather than a local force.

Given that that was the only war we've ever seen, you can't assume that.

The only ships in the existing SF I would not send into combat would be the Oberth and the Nova, and the latter could probably do a bit of damage to fighters and maybe even a BoP although not likely.

The ability to fight does not mean that they should fight.

And I never questioned the strength of your new ships or their might as an assembled fleet, just the fact that since their numbers are so small compared to the existing fleet the take longer to respond and assemble.

Already disproved this. With proper positioning the lack of numbers would be more than made up for.

If your messures had been in practice for the 100 years before the war SF would have less scientific knowledge, less space as their exploration would be cut down, less of a reputation as a peace making force. Which is why they are so big and strong, people join them because they a big and nice and cuddly, not just another space empire.

And just what does this have to do with implementing those measures now?
And being nice and cuddly isn't a good idea when you're surrounded by aggressive and beligerent empires. Not having a strong defence force is pure insanity, and we saw the cost of that in every war the Federation ever got into.

Your reactions to situations may also of cost more lives in total than the war. Chances are you and your military fleet would go kicking Romulan arse when they pull half the sh*t they do,

If you mean I'd chase them out every time they started trespassing in my territory, yes, I would. Just as modern day nations do. Given the power disparity between the two, the Romulans can't do anything about it if I blow up the latest D'Deridex they send illegaly into my territory. They'll soon get the point and stop sending them. No lives lost. In fact, there are probably less lives lost, since there won't be enemy vessels wandering around Federation space at will.

the E-C would have never helped the Klingons making another war.

The war began due to the fact that the E-C went in, and then withdrew, which the Klingons saw as treacherous and cowardly. In my Federation, the E-C wouldn't have gotten involved at all, so the war would never have started.
And besides, the Klingons can't start a war with the UFP post-Dominion War. They're too crippled and Starfleet has advanced too far ahead. They'd only succeed in getting their asses kicked, and they'd know that.

Hell relations in general would of been a lot worse over all making an alliance of the power less likely in general and the Dominion would have won the war costing even more lives and enslaving the rest.

Except this isn't during the Dominion War.

[stitch626]

Having fun guys?

This is how I would run Starfleet.
1- Give me a fast ship.
2- Go to Borg space and take them over using some technobable.
3- Conquer the universe by not wasting one ship at a time.

[Deepcrush]

Teaos, you know this whole speaking about pulling shit out of the arse thing have you looked in a mirror lately? I mean, like a big one. Wide enough for all of that crap you spit. The side of a glass building would work, I hope. Where sometimes its nice not to be alone, I think its best that DITL be left with only one rude SoB. That by the way is me, plus I'm just so much better at it then you. So, just bow to my greatness, accept you farted fate and realize that you have no understanding of the concepts Rochey and I so often speak of.

Starfleet's biggest problem is that they are always sending the closest ship to deal with anything. When it comes to S/E, these ships don't have to be defenseless. Unless you think the GCS and Nebula class are defenseless. If you do then okie dokie (He's dead Jim). Having my 3/4s or Rochey's 1/2 of the fleet serve fulltime S/E would greatly out pace what SF does right now. You say that guarding the border isn't really needed? Well even if by some silly chance that were true (because who would want to guard their border, hahaha) that would leave even more of the military arm to stand by in local systems, starbases or other rally points incase of trouble. As for pirates, that's what the single ship is for. You only need one for every world in the UFP. Plus, throw up a few ODPs and you're gold. "Sure you can raid us, that is once you get past the ODPs and the mine field."

Also, since when is it that the UFP only gets in fights during war time? Have you not seen have of TREK! Sorry, just ranting, be ready for more as you've really earned it. As to the resources, again there were plenty of ships and no one is talking about building a fleet past what was already built. We're talking about rebuilding the fleet to its pre-war numbers but with more purpose built vessels. The resources are there, we're just talking about a better control system for how its used. You've got this whole "Space Empire" thing (CRAP!) about how if SF works to improve itself somehow they'll end up at war. What does any of this woop you keep bringing up have to do with anything? Why wouldn't the E-C have helped the Klingons? Why would what we're doing post-DW have any effect on what already happened? Also, how do you put a cost on saving lives, succeeding at missions, increasing safety, improving S/E services and development of a proper R&D dept for the SF? All of these things should be at the front of planning, not your toilet bowl leftovers. Do you ever think about what you say or do you just wait for the chance to disagree Rochey on anything? (Not kinding, that last one is a real question.)

Hey, don't blame me. You brought it on yourself.

[Sionnach Glic]

Having fun guys?

Definitely. Me and Teaos haven't had a good old-fashioned debate in months.
Just like the old days, eh Teaos?

[Deepcrush]

Just like the old days, eh Teaos?

The debate or his being on the losing side of a debate?

[Mikey]

Just like the old days, eh Teaos?

The debate or his being on the losing side of a debate?

burn!

[Deepcrush]

8)

[Teaos]

Deep I must thank you for totally missing my points. If your going to sit at the big boys table please try to keep up. Or I may have to...

Points you missed:

* Your 3/4 and Rocheys 1/2 of the fleet turning to only military cripples the S/E wing. Over the short term (a few years) that wont matter but over the long term it will reduce your scientific knowledge by a huge amount.

* You continue to say we will just build more ship or ODP or what ever wanktastic weapon your fapping over this week. Yet you continue to ignore the fact the SF has not shown the ability to field these weapons in the numbers you want. Everything costs resources and until you can come up with something more than "We'll just find more" you can just go back to you colouring in book.

* You claim that they get into fights out side of war... yeah they do, usually when an explorer runs across something nasty. Then they will have to deal with it themselves probably sine all your ships are patroling the baord for an invasion that will never come.

* You claim SF does patrol its boarders a lot... so I guess thats why we never see any ships around the NZ when the Romulans come over to play?


Rochey:

No, I'm suggesting exploiting resources that have not yet been touched. There are a minimum of 150 planets in the UFP, probably thousands in total. Are you seriously suggesting that with all those planets the UFP couldn't find more resources somewhere?

You claim there could be several thousand planets they can harvest. yet you also claim you will have a ship for every planet at least... you seeing the problem here?

Why do you keep insisting it takes ages? Placing ships at every planet would allow quicker response times than the Federation historicaly had. Look, let me put it simply for you:
Planet X gets attacked by 10 enemy ships. The local defence ships can't beat them, so they withdraw to the edges of the system. Ships in neighbouring systems respond to the distress signal and rendevous with the ships from Planet X on the edge of that system, before going in in force and kicking ass.
At most, it'd probably take a day or so, probably far less than that.

Because how often do we see the Federation in need of a fleet and all they can assemble is a few ships? The Battle of Wolf 359 wouldnt have had 40 ships in it it would have 10 or 20 in it with your numbers. The fleet that tried to blockade the Klingon boarder from the Romulans wouldnt have been able to through up that anti cloak net. You do not have enough ships to respond with your numbers.

Need I mention the amount of times we see ships getting pulled in to do patrol duty, investigate distress signals, and all sorts of tasks that should fall to the military?
We know Starfleet patrols its territory.

ALL ships will respond to distress calls. Thats why fishing boats usually pick up boaters and not aircraft carriers.

Already disproved this. With proper positioning the lack of numbers would be more than made up for.

Ok here's a little math for you to chew on.

Lets the Federation is 8000ly(know) by 4000ly by 1000ly, thats 32,000,000,000 cubic light years of space. Now you said we are using GK's numbers of a 3200 ship fleet. So you want half of that as military so thats 1600 ships.

32 billion / 1600 = 20 million cubic light years of space each to patrol. Assuming even distribution (no reason to assume this since they will be closer in some areas and further apart in others) that means that every ship is about 270 light years away from each other.

Now assuming standard traveling speed of warp 9 (which is probably faster than average) that would mean for two ships to meet it would take 32 days to reach each other (according to DITLs calculator).

You still think it wouldnt take for ever to assemble a fleet? While to can claim better coverage at the boarder that would be at the cost of other areas.

[Deepcrush]

OMG, a baby sheep just asked me to the big boys table. To bad I can't bring it along.

* Your 3/4 and Rocheys 1/2 of the fleet turning to only military cripples the S/E wing. Over the short term (a few years) that wont matter but over the long term it will reduce your scientific knowledge by a huge amount.

You talk about points or your lack there of and missed that the 3/4 of my fleet were for the S/E arm. Only 1/4 was set to perform military duties. Nice to see the same old Teaos at least trying to sound smart.

* You continue to say we will just build more ship or ODP or what ever wanktastic weapon your fapping over this week. Yet you continue to ignore the fact the SF has not shown the ability to field these weapons in the numbers you want. Everything costs resources and until you can come up with something more than "We'll just find more" you can just go back to you colouring in book.

*Makes a pout face* But I like my color books, they have letters to with ideas. All this being new to you I'm but we never expected better. Ignore the fact what? That we plan to return SF to its pre-war numbers. So you think that SF can't support its pre-war numbers? Hmmm, good call on that.

P.S.
Rochey said find more. I said produce defenses then produce ships so that you don't have to tax your resources. Do you even read before you start tripping over yourself?

* You claim that they get into fights out side of war... yeah they do, usually when an explorer runs across something nasty. Then they will have to deal with it themselves probably sine all your ships are patroling the baord for an invasion that will never come.

You seem to be good at (only) math. So, if one 1/4 of my fleet is set for military duties then what percent do you think I would send to watch the border?

* You claim SF does patrol its boarders a lot... so I guess thats why we never see any ships around the NZ when the Romulans come over to play?

No, never claimed that at all. Thanks for making me read so much more of your nothingness. I claimed they SHOULD patrol the border. Might help the next time a Borg Cube or a Romulan Warbird or a pirate ship or a Breen attack force or a Klingon raider or an Orion slaver or a.... you get the point (most likely not).

[Teaos]

You talk about points or your lack there of and missed that the 3/4 of my fleet were for the S/E arm. Only 1/4 was set to perform military duties. Nice to see the same old Teaos at least trying to sound smart.

You still have 25% less S/E and Rochey has 50% less. Thats a huge loss of capability.

Rochey said find more. I said produce defenses then produce ships so that you don't have to tax your resources. Do you even read before you start tripping over yourself?

Oh find more! Why didnt I think of that. Well in that case I'll just ask Q to make all my ships indestructable.

You seem to be good at (only) math. So, if one 1/4 of my fleet is set for military duties then what percent do you think I would send to watch the border?

I dont know what % would you? You saw my numbers, your fleet is tiny.