Constitution numbers

[Teaos]

I've seen this debated on sevral forums but I always got annoyed at pople getting bitchy over the little numbers.

'There are only a dozen like her in the fleet.'

This is where a lot of the controversy comes from. People take that to mean there are either a dozen or a dozen plus the Enterprise.

Now personally I dont think it matter. One way or another the numbers seem rather low.

So my questions are:

How may do you think there are according to canon?

How many do you think they would have dispite canon. Meaning how many do you think they would reasonably need to maintain the Federation?

How many do you think they could field. Maning how many do you think they could field before bankrupting themselves. Probably the most speculative question.


Bellow is the article written by Graham about his theory on the numbers of ships.

Linky

[Aaron]

'There are only a dozen like her in the fleet.'

This is where a lot of the controversy comes from. People take that to mean there are either a dozen or a dozen plus the Enterprise.

I took it to mean there were twelve.

Now personally I dont think it matter. One way or another the numbers seem rather low.

So my questions are:

How may do you think there are according to canon?

At that point in season 1: twelve. More were probably being built

How many do you think they would have dispite canon. Meaning how many do you think they would reasonably need to maintain the Federation?

That's hard to say, we really had no idea of the size of the Federation until the movies.

How many do you think they could field. Maning how many do you think they could field before bankrupting themselves. Probably the most speculative question.

At what point? Resources appeared to have increased considerably during the TOS movie period judging from the increased luxury on the Big-E as the movies progressed.

[Teaos]

I'll go look latter but I'm sure Kirk once gave a qote for how many planets the Federation owned. That would give a decent idea of size.

EDIT:

Kirk said in they were on a thousand planets and spreading out. Now obviously that is a bit of rounding so it could be anywhere from 900-1100 and be with in reason. Even if that is including planets like Mars and Venus it is still a lot of space and a lot of resourses.

[Captain Seafort]

Realistically, that "1000 planets" quote probably means a few hundred systems - there's Earth and Mars to consider at minimum, and at the upper end the Rigel system, with something like half-a-dozen inhabited planets.

The UFP defence forces at the time probably consisted of a few hundred up to maybe a couple of thousand ships, with most being small, short range vessels, and a dozen heavy warships - the Connies. Much as the current US Navy is hundreds of ships strong, but has fewer than a dozen carriers.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

At the time it seemed that the dozen Connies were the largest ships in the fleet. The US only has 11 carriers with one under construction and since the connies were meant to be the pride of Starfleet I think it came out accurate of the times.

So I'm thinking the Connies numbered a dozen at that time with a handful of additional ships being added over the years. It seemed to be a realativly expensive vessel(due to limitations of the times and such) since it was both Starfleet's heavy warship and an exploration vessel.

Remember, just because they have 1000 planets or so doesn't mean they can exploit all their resources. Like how Iraq only had the ablitity to exploit 1/3 of their oil fields, if I remember that info correctly. It was also pre-war info so it could be out of date. But the point is that things like refinerys, and mining facilities take time to be built, and even then can only produce so much.

[Aaron]

Remember, just because they have 1000 planets or so doesn't mean they can exploit all their resources. Like how Iraq only had the ablitity to exploit 1/3 of their oil fields, if I remember that info correctly. It was also pre-war info so it could be out of date. But the point is that things like refinerys, and mining facilities take time to be built, and even then can only produce so much.

We know that the Federation has planets in it's territory that aren't even explored or otherwise used. THe Briar Patch for example.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Remember, just because they have 1000 planets or so doesn't mean they can exploit all their resources. Like how Iraq only had the ablitity to exploit 1/3 of their oil fields, if I remember that info correctly. It was also pre-war info so it could be out of date. But the point is that things like refinerys, and mining facilities take time to be built, and even then can only produce so much.

We know that the Federation has planets in it's territory that aren't even explored or otherwise used. THe Briar Patch for example.

I know, I was just reminding everyone, just incase an arguement about it broke out.

[Captain Seafort]

We know that the Federation has planets in it's territory that aren't even explored or otherwise used. THe Briar Patch for example.

True, but Kirk's choice of words, with humanity being on a thousand planets, suggests that he was refering only to those settled as colonies, rather than any ininhabited (or more specifically uncolonised) worlds within the Federatiom's perimeter.

[Aaron]

I know, I was just reminding everyone, just incase an arguement about it broke out.

Sorry, came across wrong. I was agreeing with you and phrased it wrong.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

I would suppose that the TOS era was a time of great expansion by the Federation; while they entered the era with limited resources they had far greater resources by the time of the movie era. Observe the run of Excelsiors starting during the movie era that vastly outnumbered the original Connies.

[Aaron]

True, but Kirk's choice of words, with humanity being on a thousand planets, suggests that he was refering only to those settled as colonies, rather than any ininhabited (or more specifically uncolonised) worlds within the Federatiom's perimeter.

I thought what he said was "we're at a thousand planets and spreading out". Naturally Trekcore doesn't have the script up. In any case he could easily be referring to colonies, outpost, listening stations and other assorted worlds that have a presence but not a full colony. Nor do we have any real idea of how much space it covers.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I would suppose that the TOS era was a time of great expansion by the Federation; while they entered the era with limited resources they had far greater resources by the time of the movie era. Observe the run of Excelsiors starting during the movie era that vastly outnumbered the original Connies.

Actually during the movie era we only saw the Excelsior. It wasn't until 50+ years later, that we saw large numbers of them. 20 named ships of that class if I remember correctly.

[Captain Seafort]

Most of which had pretty big numbers assigned to them - only the Repulse (NCC-2544) had a number anywhere close to that of the original Excelsior.

[Graham Kennedy]

My take on it is that the quote means that there are a dozen Constitution class Starships in the fleet at that point. That seems reasonable to me, if we bear a few things in mind.

First, it's not the total number of starships. I have no problem at all believing that there is a class of older Explorers in service that numbers tens or dozens. Possibly several such classes. Kirk's line would be like somebody saying of a Nimitz class carrier a while back "There are only five like her in the fleet" - but then there are seven carriers of other classes as well.

Additionally, we've semi-canonically glimpsed the scouts/destroyers etc that Franz Joseph did, and I have no problem believing that those outnumber the big ships five or ten to one.

So call it 40 heavy Starships... a couple of hundred destroyers and frigates... maybe that again in support ships, for a fleet of 450 - 500. That seems like a reasonable fleet to protect a 1000-world Federation.

[Teaos]

I still think a dozen seems low. Considering they would be spread out and their top speed isnt that great they would take a few years to assemble them. A 1000 planets is a lot of raw materials to use. Realisticly even is only half those planets were inhabited and half of those to a decent level of a few million plus that still leave 250 decently inhabited planets. Now earth at the time would have around 10 billion people. A planet like that could field a dozen by its self easy.

Realisticly to scare forign powers away, explore space, keep the peace, you would need at least 30+ in my opinion.

And think of build rates. At the time say they can throw out 2 or 3 capital ships a year at least. That would leed to a rather large fleet.