Voyagers premise and Janeway "stupidity"

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:12 am

Bryan Moore wrote:
The Tuvix thing reeeeealy bothered me. Janeway shares with Will Riker the honour of being the only "good" Starfleet officer to deliberately murder a person.
When was this?

The episode Tuvix. Janeway kills Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:17 am

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Bryan Moore wrote:
The Tuvix thing reeeeealy bothered me. Janeway shares with Will Riker the honour of being the only "good" Starfleet officer to deliberately murder a person.
When was this?
The episode Tuvix. Janeway kills Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back.

That was bad, i'll give you that. I just don't see why everyone hates her SOOOOOO much.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:30 pm

Picard had backbone. He went against orders everal times which could of cost him his job.

kostmayer · Post by **kostmayer** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:34 pm

Reliant121 wrote:
GrahamKennedy wrote:
Bryan Moore wrote: When was this?
The episode Tuvix. Janeway kills Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back.
That was bad, i'll give you that. I just don't see why everyone hates her SOOOOOO much.

And Riker?

Are you talking about the 2 clones he phasered in their sleep?

I'm still rather saddened that the nickname Clonekiller Riker never caught on.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:51 pm

I don't think the problem with Janeway is one of backbone per se; rather, as I and then Bryan have mentioned, it's the fact that she applies what backbone she has in completely inconsistent ways, and even at cross purposes from one ep to the next.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:49 pm

Prime example would be Series 6...Void. She, even though it didn't mean getting home quicker, stuck to her morals and denied herself and the ship the advantages of stealing from other vessels, the home tactic of the enivronment.

Haven't seen it, so I'll just take your word for it.

Thing is, though, Picard was more than ready to humble himself to save his crew. When they encountered the Borg, Picard set asside his ego and begged Q to save his crew. Janeway, on the other hand, refused to sleep with Q to get her crew home. Also, I can't imagine Janeway begging anyone for help.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:32 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Bryan Moore wrote:
The Tuvix thing reeeeealy bothered me. Janeway shares with Will Riker the honour of being the only "good" Starfleet officer to deliberately murder a person.
When was this?
The episode Tuvix. Janeway kills Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back.

Correction. When did Riker blatantly kill someone. I remember Tuvix. Sorry.

kostmayer · Post by **kostmayer** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:41 pm

That can't be the only murder.

Picard shot his future self.

Worf killed Duras - granted it was a fight to the death, but he was down on the ground, and as a Starfleet Officer Worf shouldn't have done it. He also snapped Weyouns neck in a fit of anger.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:34 pm

kostmayer wrote:That can't be the only murder.

Picard shot his future self.

Worf killed Duras - granted it was a fight to the death, but he was down on the ground, and as a Starfleet Officer Worf shouldn't have done it. He also snapped Weyouns neck in a fit of anger.

Weyoun gets a pass considering he's an enemy commander and Worf was a POW.

kostmayer · Post by **kostmayer** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:37 pm

And for the fact he had it coming

But still, it was purely out of anger and was in no way an attempt to escape. As Damar said, Worf should really have killed him instead. Just as well he didn't really, it could have changed the outcome of the war.

Is it disturbing to share Damars amusement at Weyouns death?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:58 pm

kostmayer wrote:But still, it was purely out of anger and was in no way an attempt to escape.

True, but there are no rules against killing enemy commanders during wartime, and even when said commanders can be cloned the time required to grow a replacement may be critical. Also, IIRC Worf's standing up to Weyoun and killing him was part of the reason Damar decided to grow a spine, so it ultimately proved critical to Fed success.

Is it disturbing to share Damars amusement at Weyouns death?

Probably, but Weyoun was being a gobby, arrogant idiot in deliberately provoking a Klingon - after all, self restraint isn't the species' most notable trait. Maybe he was fed up with that body and wanted a change?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:08 pm

kostmayer wrote:And for the fact he had it coming

But still, it was purely out of anger and was in no way an attempt to escape. As Damar said, Worf should really have killed him instead. Just as well he didn't really, it could have changed the outcome of the war.

Is it disturbing to share Damars amusement at Weyouns death?

A POW is supposed to make every possible effort to escape. If that's not possible than they are to hinder the enemy as much as they can IE: prison riots, sabotoging camp facilities, etc. Killing Weyoun definetly falls into this category.

kostmayer · Post by **kostmayer** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:48 am

I agree, but that wasn't Worfs motivation. If it was, he would have gone for Damar.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:25 am

kostmayer wrote:I agree, but that wasn't Worfs motivation. If it was, he would have gone for Damar.

Their both legitimate targets. And didn't Damar have a little chat with him before this?

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:31 am

Yeah, Riker was indeed a killer of clones! What was amusing was the DS9 episode "A Man Alone" where Odo specifically states "Killing your own clone is still murder!" to a prisoner. Guess Riker never got that memo...