War of the Week: I

[Mikey]

From Memory Alpha: "The Cardassian educational system is considered to be unparalleled in the Alpha Quadrant, and educational attainment is regarded as a key asset in Cardassian society. Cardassian children are often put into intensive mind training programs from as early as three or four. It is because of these mind training programs that some Cardassians are able to resist a Vulcan mind meld. Cardassians are also trained during this time to have photographic memories."

This says nothing at all about every child being trained for the Cardassian military.

And, when it comes down to it, there are many examples of huge Empires being succesfully resisted by the populace; witness Hitler's invasion of Russia. One of the main reasons why he didn't succeed was because virtually the entire Russian populace was against him, and were willing to do whatever it took to stop him. The Russians burned their cities and fields to the ground before Hitler could take them, and practically starved themselves to make sure his men were starving too. This doesn't in any way discount the true power of Nazi Germany; if it had come down to a fight, he would have slaughtered them.

Yep. This is one of those times.

[Teaos]

The training may not be specifically for the military it puts them in the same mind set and it would lead them to rolls in the military.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, it's been clearly demonstrated that they could do that...melting holes in solid rock, etc.

No, it's been clearly demonstrated that wide-beam stun is only effective at very short range - ie a few metres, and maximum power is nowhere close to blowing up houses, regardless of what Riker may have claimed in "Frame of Mind". Shuttle firepower is enough to blow up a big truck, but that makes it about as powerful as a small bomb, not the Death Star.

Well, if it came down to sheer force, the Cardassians could have simply annihilated every single person on Bajor at any time...but they honestly believed that they could in the end convince the Bajorans to stop resisting if they punished the individual resistance cells individually.

No, they couldn't have wiped out the Bajoran population - they couldn't even find them most of the time thanks to funny rocks in the hills blocking their sensors.

And, when it comes down to it, there are many examples of huge Empires being succesfully resisted by the populace; witness Hitler's invasion of Russia. One of the main reasons why he didn't succeed was because virtually the entire Russian populace was against him, and were willing to do whatever it took to stop him. The Russians burned their cities and fields to the ground before Hitler could take them, and practically starved themselves to make sure his men were starving too. This doesn't in any way discount the true power of Nazi Germany; if it had come down to a fight, he would have slaughtered them.

Nazi Germany does not count as a huge empire - it counts as a resource poor country with an oversized army biting off more than it could chew. You say "it had come down to a fight, [Hitler] would have slaughtered them" - it was a fight, the Russians call it the Great Patriotic War, and Hitler came second.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, it's been clearly demonstrated that they could do that...melting holes in solid rock, etc.

No, it's been clearly demonstrated that wide-beam stun is only effective at very short range - ie a few metres, and maximum power is nowhere close to blowing up houses, regardless of what Riker may have claimed in "Frame of Mind". Shuttle firepower is enough to blow up a big truck, but that makes it about as powerful as a small bomb, not the Death Star.

Well, if it came down to sheer force, the Cardassians could have simply annihilated every single person on Bajor at any time...but they honestly believed that they could in the end convince the Bajorans to stop resisting if they punished the individual resistance cells individually.

No, they couldn't have wiped out the Bajoran population - they couldn't even find them most of the time thanks to funny rocks in the hills blocking their sensors.

And, when it comes down to it, there are many examples of huge Empires being succesfully resisted by the populace; witness Hitler's invasion of Russia. One of the main reasons why he didn't succeed was because virtually the entire Russian populace was against him, and were willing to do whatever it took to stop him. The Russians burned their cities and fields to the ground before Hitler could take them, and practically starved themselves to make sure his men were starving too. This doesn't in any way discount the true power of Nazi Germany; if it had come down to a fight, he would have slaughtered them.

Nazi Germany does not count as a huge empire - it counts as a resource poor country with an oversized army biting off more than it could chew. You say "it had come down to a fight, [Hitler] would have slaughtered them" - it was a fight, the Russians call it the Great Patriotic War, and Hitler came second.

[Mikey]

The training may not be specifically for the military it puts them in the same mind set and it would lead them to rolls in the military.

Conjecture, at best. My hgih school was a preparatory school, and could lead to entrance into West Point, Annapolis, or the Air Force Academy; yet here I am, a civilian. "Could lead" and "would lead" are two very different things. And the proof is in the pudding - if your scenario were so, why are there civilian Cardassians of service age?

[Deepcrush]

I see the cardassians as the equal of britain today. They aren't the worlds greatest power, far from it in fact. The nation is also resource poor and needs outside supply to survive, that is in the modern sense of course. But lets think about this. Would anyone here think of the UK (cardassians) as a minor threat. True enough it could never hold up to the US (UFP) or PRC (Klingons) but that doesn't mean that it isn't a power in its own right. In fact to what I know of europe (what ever region of space cardassia is in) the UK (cardassians) is the top power there. My brother chris served in the USMC and spoke highly of only one force in europe and that was the UK Royal Marines. We hear talk from others about the ablities of the cardassians and the combat respect that they have earned. UK tanks aren't as good as the US's but they are still better then many others out there. There ships are every bit the equal of the US but lack the numbers and production to maintain a large scale war. If the cardassians upgraded their galors to keldon class then you would have a pretty impressive fleet. Still wouldn't be able to face the big 3 but would be able to hold thier own sectors well enough.

[Captain Seafort]

The Cardies can already hold their own in their sector - as they showed by giving the Feds a bloody nose during the first war. They can't match a Galaxy or a Nebula, but I suspect a Galor versus an Excelsior would be a very close match.

As for the comparison with the British Armed Forces, a few points.

1) Armour - the three best tanks in the world, currently, and the Abrams, the Challenger 2, and the Leopard 2. Between those three picking the best would be virtually impossible.

2) Training - among the best in the world, and a lot better than the US Armed Forces as a whole. While the USMC is a lot closer to British standards than the rest of the US military, I doubt they're up to RM standards. As an example of how good the Royal Marines are, I recall a story of how a RM unit visited the HQ of the US Army Special Forces, and absolutely shredded the record on their assault course.

3) The US Armed Forces don't have the best ligh infantry in the world in their ranks - the British Army does. In any light infantry battle I'd bet on the Royal Ghurka Rifles over any other unit in the world. Special Forces included.

[Deepcrush]

"Armour - the three best tanks in the world, currently, and the Abrams, the Challenger 2, and the Leopard 2. Between those three picking the best would be virtually impossible."

Umm, yeah thats the Abrams hands down and without a doubt. I would call the Challenger the second place taker.

"Training - among the best in the world, and a lot better than the US Armed Forces as a whole. While the USMC is a lot closer to British standards than the rest of the US military, I doubt they're up to RM standards. As an example of how good the Royal Marines are, I recall a story of how a RM unit visited the HQ of the US Army Special Forces, and absolutely shredded the record on their assault course."

As I said, the USMC looks to the Royal Marines as brothers in arms for just that reason. USMC Force Recon is counted as the equal of the Royal Marines but that is because it was the Royal Marines who trained the first generation of them and they still cross train today. As to beating the Army well, that doesn't say much.

"The US Armed Forces don't have the best ligh infantry in the world in their ranks - the British Army does. In any light infantry battle I'd bet on the Royal Ghurka Rifles over any other unit in the world. Special Forces included."

Well that figures as the US doesn't use light infantry. USMC has scout companies and the US Army has recon unit like Ghosts and Rangers but still the US remains apart from light infantry needs. We are a nation that uses heavy weapons at all times, even if they aren't truly needed. Our armed forces are built around the ideals of total war, yet our own government uses them like police.

[Captain Seafort]

Umm, yeah thats the Abrams hands down and without a doubt. I would call the Challenger the second place taker.

Those top three are too close together to call one better than another. The Abrams has better mobility, but the Challenger has fractionally better firepower and better protection.

Well that figures as the US doesn't use light infantry. USMC has scout companies and the US Army has recon unit like Ghosts and Rangers but still the US remains apart from light infantry needs. We are a nation that uses heavy weapons at all times, even if they aren't truly needed. Our armed forces are built around the ideals of total war, yet our own government uses them like police.

Does the US military have infantry who fight on two feet rather than tracks or wheels? Yes - the recce forces you mention for example, along with the "Green Berets", SEALS, Delta, etc. While the British Armed Forces have far more light role units than the US, particuarly proportionally, that doesn't mean the US is devoid of such units.

[Thorin]

It's pretty well known that the British armed service - (including the more 'elite' SAS and Royal Marines) are the best trained forces in the world - probably because we're the first 'Western' nation in the world.

Regarding the UK's overall power, we're defintely not a superpower anymore, but we still have the second largest navy in the world and are the third (arguably second) most nuclear-able country in the world (after the US and maybe Russia). Outside of the US, the only other countries capable of standing up to the UK in militaristic, industrial and economic terms is Germany, Japan, and China - the later only because of it's huge population.

So no, I'd definitley not compare the Cardassians to the UK.

[Enkidu]

I see Deepcrush's point (though as a Briton I don't like comparing the fascistic Cardassions, one of my least favourite Trek races, with us!) A Superpower does not go toe to toe with a second tier power unless the stakes are high enough or it is unavoidable, because while victory is probable, the costs potentially outweigh the gains.
I think Peabody's description of the invasion of Russia matches Napoleons attempt far closer than Hitlers. Napoleons army relied far more on living from the land than did the Germans. The Russian tactic of scorched earth was used successfully against Boney.
An aside: As an keen student of the Second World War, who spent a big chunk of my childhood building model Panzers, (German weapons, vehicles, uniforms and camouflage marking where the best looking) I think the military power of Nazi Germany is often overstated. There seems to be lot of people buying into the propaganda (of which there seems to be increasingly a lot around) of the Aryan Superman these days.

[Enkidu]

Reading Thorin's comments, Don't the French have a disturbingly large nuclear arsenal? Do we have more than them?
The Chinese seem to be closing the technology gap quite quickly these days. They are using increasingly hi-tech weapons, and caused a minor international incident a couple of weeks ago, when they "accidentally" surfaced a sub by a US Carrier in the middle of an major fleet exercise. They apologized for the "accident", but the world got the message, loud and clear.

[Thorin]

Reading Thorin's comments, Don't the French have a disturbingly large nuclear arsenal? Do we have more than them?

Obviously these things are classified, but modern estimates place the UK's nuclear arsenal at about double that of the French. Also should be noted that the UK was the 3rd nation in the world for nuclear tests (fission or fusion), and that we we're a major part of the Manhatten project, putting the actual quality/advancement of our nuclear weapons on a par with the US, even if we have less. So the French have less, and of lesser quality.

The Chinese seem to be closing the technology gap quite quickly these days. They are using increasingly hi-tech weapons, and caused a minor international incident a couple of weeks ago, when they "accidentally" surfaced a sub by a US Carrier in the middle of an major fleet exercise. They apologized for the "accident", but the world got the message, loud and clear.

They are closing it down quite quickly, but are no where near any 'Western' country yet. Their huge population obviously helps out a lot, but the living conditions leave a lot to be desired. It's worth noting that although they have a population about 20 times that of the UK, they have a similar industrial/economic output - in terms of GDP. Japan has about double the GDP of the UK, but has double the population.

Germany, UK, and Japan are probably joint second after the US in terms of world power.

[Captain Peabody]

No, it's been clearly demonstrated that wide-beam stun is only effective at very short range - ie a few metres, and maximum power is nowhere close to blowing up houses, regardless of what Riker may have claimed in "Frame of Mind". Shuttle firepower is enough to blow up a big truck, but that makes it about as powerful as a small bomb, not the Death Star.

Oh, come on; Federation weapons have been demonstrated to have power well above modern firearms... I just can't, um, think of any specific examples right now; I'll get back to you on this, though...

You have to admit, though, that the ship phaser stun effect from TOS is pretty darn cool; that there could put an end to any land battle as long as there's a starship in orbit. So, final verdict on Federation weapons technology? Okay, but with cool features.

No, they couldn't have wiped out the Bajoran population - they couldn't even find them most of the time thanks to funny rocks in the hills blocking their sensors.

Well, they could have just brought in a couple of ships and slagged the planet (as per Die is Cast); I think that would have put an end to the Resistance right there...

Conjecture, at best. My hgih school was a preparatory school, and could lead to entrance into West Point, Annapolis, or the Air Force Academy; yet here I am, a civilian. "Could lead" and "would lead" are two very different things. And the proof is in the pudding - if your scenario were so, why are there civilian Cardassians of service age?

I'm not saying that every single Cardassian is put into military training...just that since every single Cardassian is trained to regard service to the State, and the State basically is the Military, then I think that's going to increase your conscription rates.

I think Peabody's description of the invasion of Russia matches Napoleons attempt far closer than Hitlers. Napoleons army relied far more on living from the land than did the Germans. The Russian tactic of scorched earth was used successfully against Boney.

That's another valid example; the paralells between the two campaigns are quite striking (don't mad dictators ever learn any History?). Both invasions were defeated both by the harshness of the Russian climate, and the determination of the Russians themselves.

An aside: As an keen student of the Second World War, who spent a big chunk of my childhood building model Panzers, (German weapons, vehicles, uniforms and camouflage marking where the best looking) I think the military power of Nazi Germany is often overstated. There seems to be lot of people buying into the propaganda (of which there seems to be increasingly a lot around) of the Aryan Superman these days.

Well, of course the German army wasn't superhuman or anything; it was simply a well-trained, well-equipped military force. The reason Germany had such success in the early parts of the war was largely due to the unpreparedness of the rest of Europe, who had been too busy appeasing Hitler to notice as he gradually built up his forces. But still, any force which is able to take over most of Europe in such a short time can't be all bad...

[Enkidu]

While the image of the German army is of a well equipped mechanized force, the reality is that was just the spearhead of the blitzkrieg. For every well equiped panzergrenadier riding in a modern halftrack APC, there where hundreds of ordinary soldiers matching along, behind horse-drawn artillery, with weapons that may well be have looted from conquered and annexed nations. Their industry was never able to keep pace with Hitler's ambition.
EDIT: Is it my connection or is the forum like treacle this afternoon?