Why did they wait?

[Deepcrush]

OK, so the front-line ship had a crew of 600 - thanks, Seafort. That's a lot different from "the base and two ships not totaling 700 casualties." I can't see much of a difference in the complement of Galors and Keldons, considering the similarities, so that leaves us with a near-UFP degree of staffing. If we must assume that the CU doesn't berth the same type of science and research personnel, then the idea of berthing a contingent of marines or other soldiers conveniently makes up that difference and fits what we know of the CU military.

Makes sense, even more so if that ship was there to help build up arms in the sector.

[McAvoy]

Something else here too. In TNG we have heard about different types of Galors. I have to recheck (I think it was Parallels) but a Type 3 Galor class ship was able to damage the E-D. So there may be a possibility that the CU fields more powerful versions of the Galors. One could be a destroyer which is more numerous which could be a Type 1. A Type 2 could be a cruiser equivilant and Type 3 could be a heavy cruiser or battlecruiser/ship.

This sort of fits in that the CU has it's emblem shaped like a Galor class ship. Which I think the emblem was first and then the Galor class was second. The Keldon could be a recent design perhaps to fill a role like a command ship or battleship for example.

[Captain Seafort]

Something else here too. In TNG we have heard about different types of Galors. I have to recheck (I think it was Parallels) but a Type 3 Galor class ship was able to damage the E-D.

Ensign Ro, and it was described as "top of the line" by Riker. Whether this indicated that it was capable of taking on the E-D, or simply referred to the ship's status in the Cardassian fleet wasn't mentioned, and at no point were the relative strengths of two such vessels versus the E-D discussed.

[McAvoy]

I do remember that one Galor class did damage the E-D which killed Geordi in Parrallels. Of course we could say that the Cardassian were more powerful in that reality. Worf was still confused too.

Top of the Line usually means the best their fleet has to offer. It refers to the Ship of the Line, or line of battle during the age of sail. The best in the fleet takes the front line since they can take more punishment than the older less capable ships. This is off of the top of my memory, though.

[Captain Seafort]

Top of the Line usually means the best their fleet has to offer. It refers to the Ship of the Line, or line of battle during the age of sail. The best in the fleet takes the front line since they can take more punishment than the older less capable ships. This is off of the top of my memory, though.

Indeed, but the question is whether he's talking in absolute or relative terms. In the Swiss navy a glorified rigid raider would probably be considered top of the line. In the US Navy, not so much.

[McAvoy]

True.

I have rewatched the whole TNG series, and there is mention that the Cardassian War before the treaty cost millions of lives by Picard. But the way it is described, gives you the feeling that the UFP was fighting a defensive war where the Cardassians were on the offensive. I don't meant because Starfleet was losing but because they didn't want to make it into a full blown war.

Another thing too, is in The Chase, the E-D took hits unshielded (SIF was reinforced though) by two Galor class ships where the Vorcha class would take an hour to fix. The fact that every power only had one ship where the Cardassians needed two could say something.

[Captain Seafort]

Another thing too, is in The Chase, the E-D took hits unshielded (SIF was reinforced though) by two Galor class ships where the Vorcha class would take an hour to fix. The fact that every power only had one ship where the Cardassians needed two could say something.

There's a long string of examples of the Cardies either deploying in strength or getting stuffed. There are the incidents in The Wounded I've mentioned above, and Defiant, where the Defiant crippled a Keldon with a single salvo. There are the cases in The Chase and Ensign Ro when they deployed pairs of ships, and in both Chain of Command and Emissary when they deployed trios. The picture painted is one of a Cardassian fleet that would give the shit kicked out of it if it tried to go nose-to-nose with Starfleet. This begs the question of why Starfleet didn't simply steamroller the Cardassians back until they packed in their raiding. The most likely reason, I believe, is that to do so the Federation would have had to seize fortified Cardassian positions along the border, in order to deprive them of staging posts for their raids (The Defector, Chain of Command and Tears of the Prophets all demonstrate that major attacks require a staging point very close to the target). The problem with this is that the Federation, as has been discussed ad nauseum, has no concept of ground warfare. They're not the worst, but they're bad. The Cardassians, on the other hand, are far more competent. Their weapons are designed for reliability over peak performance, they have mechanised infantry of some description, carried in vehicles proof against small arms fire, and they have an excellent live-fire training ground called Bajor (and probably other, similar worlds). It's likely that the Feds were simply incapable of beating the Cardies on the ground, and it was that that forced the stalemate.

[McAvoy]

Perhaps. But the only reference is what Kira said about the phaser rifle and the rest is conjecture. I mean the Feds could have developed their own ground warfare. We do have a reference to some sort of ground attack or troop ship in the episode where Jake Sisko was caught in the middle of a Federation and Klingon ground battle.

I suspect it may have been an unpopular war for the Federation. There are references during that same timeframe that Starfleet was fighting other wars or skirmishes with other powers.

[Mikey]

The fact of mechanized Cardassian infantry isn't conjecture; Kira specifically mentioned attacking troops exiting a ground-effect troop transport.

[Captain Seafort]

But the only reference is what Kira said about the phaser rifle and the rest is conjecture.

The existence of mechanised infantry comes from The Wire, supported by the description of an APC in The Darkness and the Light. Bajor's status as a training area has more references than I can count, given how much detail we've had regarding the resistance.

I mean the Feds could have developed their own ground warfare.

We saw their idea of an infantry company holding an important facility at AR-558. No machine guns, no mortars, no anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons, no grenades, not even half-decent rifles, nothing but the old TNG-era SMG-analogues. The best we've seen have been the Worfzooka and the Argo dune buggy. The former had pathetic firepower and the latter made a Snatch look like a tank.

We do have a reference to some sort of ground attack or troop ship in the episode where Jake Sisko was caught in the middle of a Federation and Klingon ground battle.

The hoppers? They needed to leave people behind to lay down suppressive fire, and were still concerned that they wouldn't get out. The Cardie vehicle, by contrast, was well-protected enough that the Shakaar cell didn't even bother trying to bring one down - they waited until the occupants emerged, then opened fire.

I suspect it may have been an unpopular war for the Federation. There are references during that same timeframe that Starfleet was fighting other wars or skirmishes with other powers.

Possibly, but given the example of Setlick III, do you think the Feds would simply have ignored the Cardies and hoped they'd go away?

[McAvoy]

My mistake.

However, I was under the impression that AR-558 was in a cave system? If so, AA, tanks etc wouldn't do much good. You are correct that there should be something heavier than TNG era rifles. I guess you could say that those weapons were destroyed since they captured AR-558. Defiant isn't exactly a good ship to carry heavy equipment like that.

How many times have we seen heavy ground battles in Star Trek where it would have been nice to have such things? Just because they are not seen doesn't mean they are not there. The technology is there. Starfleet has numerous light attack craft at their disposal. Much more so than the other powers. Does that mean Starfleet has absolute superiority in that respect?

[Mikey]

It's not just a question of materiel in the example provided by AR-558; it's a question of overall philosophy and preparedness. It's not just that Starfleet didn't have heavy weapons - they didn't have soldiers. The personnel trying to hold AR-558 were Starfleet crew. Now, I'm not putting down sailors; but what would it say about the U.S. military machine if we attempted to prosecute tactical ground objectives with sailors instead of soldiers?

[Captain Seafort]

However, I was under the impression that AR-558 was in a cave system?

The transmitter itself was, but the main perimeter was outside.

You are correct that there should be something heavier than TNG era rifles. I guess you could say that those weapons were destroyed since they captured AR-558.

Then why wasn't it mentioned? The only complaints raised were that they were under strength and knackered from having spent too long on the front line. Nothing about missing all their support weapons.

Defiant isn't exactly a good ship to carry heavy equipment like that.

We're not talking about heavy equipment, we're talking about basic support weapons organic to a light infantry company.

How many times have we seen heavy ground battles in Star Trek where it would have been nice to have such things?

AR-558 is the killer, because it depicts a light infantry company deployed for the specific task of taking and holding a position. On top of that you have Descent - most of the crew beaming down looking for Data after he went swanning off with a Borg, and only one in four of them had SMGs, let alone anything heavier. Also, every single example of a team (usually four of the most senior officers on the ship) beaming into a known or suspected hostile situation with nothing more than dustbusters or, very occasionally, an SMG. Never any body armour, never any helmets, never any grenades of any description.

[BigJKU316]

AR-558 is so frustrating for that reason. It is a good episode in a lot of ways but I just can't logically imagine how you go from where Earth is now and the frequent wars for territory talked about in both Ent and TOS. More than that it seems to me as if they lost all history books ever written about war and all tactical manuals. Which is odd because they still have tons of other classic books laying around so you think someone would have some idea of at least a few basic concepts like fire and movement or something.

The really sad part was the genetically engineered super-soldiers did not seem to have appreciably better tactics really.

I will give it one thing, it was not as bad as Space Above and Beyond where the show started off with a pretty good episode with fighter pilots being the stars and eventually they end up doing a ton of ground-pounder work as the budget declined. Who the hell sends explicitly trained fighter pilots (probably one of the tougher things to qualify for in the military) to serve as poorly trained light infantry? At least the group from Starfleet in AR-558 never really told us what it was they were trained to do I guess so it might make some sense.

[Deepcrush]

In S:A&B they were Marines and the producers took the "Land, Air and Sea" motto to far.