Should Hugh Have Been Used To Destroy The Borg?

[Mikey]

Isn't that just a nice way of saying the end justifies the means?

Yep. So? In this case, we are talking about the end (saving the UFP from an enemy power) justifying the means (annihilation of the enemy soldiery.) Doesn't sound much different than...er, war.

the prevention of the possible destruction of the UFP (which might not even happen)

Well, you can either:
a) do something about the distinct probability that the UFP is threatened, or;
b) sit around and wait and hope that nothing bad will ever happen, and then just be destroyed when it does.

I don't think there's any more here I need to point out.

seems not justification enough to commit holocaust.

"To commit holocaust?" The word "holocaust" is a noun, meaning "a large fire or conflagration." If you mean "Holocaust," that's a name given to Hitler's and the Nazi party's murder of 12 million European Jews, Catholics, homosexuals, Romany, communists, and a few other groups. Supposing you mean the term "genocide," it doesn't apply. Killing all of an enemy power's combatants isn't genocide; it's the prosecution of a war.

it seems pretty much clear that Picard knew exactly what they were talking about. It doesn't matter if they paraphrase it as "stopping them" etc. the effect of the virus on the borg and the consequences seem clear to anyone, but maybe I need to watch the episode again, maybe their original goal was just to hinder, dissolve etc. the collective with unfortunate side effects.

I'm sure they knew. So? You're confusing effect with purpose. The weapon was designed with the purpose of stopping the Borg from destroying the UFP. The fact that it kiled them all was either a method of doing this, or a side-effect. That they knew the effects of the weapon is (sorry, again) irrelevant.

more concerned with doing the right thing than being practical.

Apparently not - the right thing would have been to take advantage of an opportunity to guarantee the safety of the UFP.

Is it? How do you know that? I am not saying they did just fine during Wolf 359 but on the other hand they were able to beat them in the end. With estimated years to the next encounter and new technologies waiting in the lines it seems nuking them out of the universe seems far from the only option they had and vastly out of proportion. Now we might call Starfleet once more stupid idiots but it was mentioned that the UFP considered the borg less and less of a threat to the point were they didn't even finish the defiant prototype.

The lesson to be gained from Wolf 359 was that the UFP had no hope in hell of fighting off an attack by a determined group of Borg, when a simple advance scout was able to wreak such havoc among them. New tech is not a point of consideration, because the choice was up to Picard then and there.

But at the time of the Hugh episode the borg are far less of a threat.

I don't buy it. The Borg have stated their intention to destroy the UFP; have proven their intent to follow up on that threat; and have proven to be capable of delivering, when (not if, as shown by those last two points) they decide to make good on it. The fact that they are doing something else in the meantime does not lessen their status as a threat.

this could very well change in the not to far away future.

So, they should have waited and prayed that the Borg would wait for the ability to do so? There's a term for that sort of planning - "idiocy."

in fact they largely ignore the away team etc.

Yes, we all know how oddly individual drones, or small groups, operate. This has absolutely, positively nothing to do with the Borg's intentions towards the UFP or their ability to effect those intentions.

Now you might say timing is irrelevant but to me it seems like someone threatens to kill you and then gives you a bloody nose. Since his actions are consistent with his announcement to kill you, you are of course justified to defend yourself in every way possible. But later you encounter the same guy and although he shows no signs of aggressions (or is at least of no immediate threat) you calmly decide to kill him just to be sure he is of no threat to you anymore. One is self-defense, the other is murder.

Flawed analogy. It might work as an analogy if:

- the guy gave you the bloody nose during the course of an attempt to kill you;
- upon your second meeting, they guy again attempted to kill you... and your wife, and kids, and parents, and dog... oh, and every other human in existence.

[Atekimogus]

Well, basically you say Picard was a fool for not using Hugh to destroy the borg whereas I agree with the show and think that at no point was he justified to do so, let's leave it at that. Therefore just a few minor points:

"To commit holocaust?" The word "holocaust" is a noun, meaning "a large fire or conflagration." If you mean "Holocaust," that's a name given to Hitler's and the Nazi party's murder of 12 million European Jews, Catholics, homosexuals, Romany, communists, and a few other groups. Supposing you mean the term "genocide," it doesn't apply. Killing all of an enemy power's combatants isn't genocide; it's the prosecution of a war.

My online dictonary uses both terms holocaust and genocide for Massenvernichtung and Völkermord (meaning basically mass-extermination and genocide) with no special reference that you may only use this term in a WW2 context, so apologies for the confusion.

I'm sure they knew. So? You're confusing effect with purpose. The weapon was designed with the purpose of stopping the Borg from destroying the UFP. The fact that it kiled them all was either a method of doing this, or a side-effect. That they knew the effects of the weapon is (sorry, again) irrelevant.

I don't think I am confusing the purpose of a weapon with the effect, but I readily admit that I do have trouble how you can separate them so easily and ignore one part of the equation. Mostly because to me it sounds like a lawyer defending the use of weapons of any kind if only you use them for the correct purpose regardless of the effects. You could aplly this logic to basically to all weapons of mass destruction and justify their deployment. (Conceded, the borg are a special case with every member arguable a combatant which could arguable justify it, still I wouldn't call the effect "irrelevant")

[Mikey]

My online dictonary uses both terms holocaust and genocide for Massenvernichtung and Völkermord (meaning basically mass-extermination and genocide) with no special reference that you may only use this term in a WW2 context, so apologies for the confusion.

Apologies on my part as well, I've never heard the word outside of the definitions I delineated.

I readily admit that I do have trouble how you can separate them so easily and ignore one part of the equation.

Please don't get the impression that this is the case. I separate them only in the scope of a discussion about the mindset of the individuals who are deciding on their use; my intention was not to belittle the effect. Indeed, while there my be a connotation of insignificance to the term "side-effect," I only used that term in a descriptive - not judgemental - way.

You could aplly this logic to basically to all weapons of mass destruction and justify their deployment.

You could, though that wouldn't really apply to my point. We have alternatives to using WMD's in almost every instance; at the time of BoBW, there was no extant, feasible alternative to the Hugh-virus.

the borg are a special case with every member arguable a combatant which could arguable justify it

While you have this mentioned parenthetically, it's a very sharp distinction and important factor.

still I wouldn't call the effect "irrelevant"

Nor would I, in every way that matters to the universe at large. However, when one is discussing specifically the ethos involved in using such a weapon when the alternative is the annihilation of your own species/nation, it does become irrelevant for that purpose.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, basically you say Picard was a fool for not using Hugh to destroy the borg whereas I agree with the show and think that at no point was he justified to do so, let's leave it at that.

It's not simply a question of either thinking Picard's decision was stupid and agreeing with the show. From "Descent, Pt 1":

PICARD
Once Hugh was separated from the
Borg collective he began to...
grow and evolve into something
more than just an automaton. He
was a person. When that happened,
I had no choice but to respect his
rights as an individual.

NECHAYEV
Of course you had a choice. You
could've taken the opportunity to
rid the Federation of a mortal
enemy... one that has killed tens
of thousands of innocent people,
and which may kill even more.

PICARD
(tight)
No one is more aware of the danger
than I am. But I am also bound by
my oath and my conscience to
uphold certain principles. And I
will not sacrifice them in order
to--

NECHAYEV
(hard)
Your priority is to safeguard the
lives of Federation citizens...
not to wrestle with your
conscience.
(beat)
Now I want to make it clear that
if you have a similar opportunity
in the future... an opportunity to
destroy the Borg... you are under
orders to take advantage of it.
Is that understood?

Those of us who think Picard was an idiot are supported, not just by logic, but by Picard's boss.

[Tyyr]

And Nechayev is many things. Incompetent is not one of them.

[Captain Seafort]

She's one of only three truly competent Admirals I can think of from the TNG era.

[Reliant121]

Indeed, she may have been a bit of a hard-line bitch, but at least she got shit done. And when it was needed most.

[Atekimogus]

She's one of only three truly competent Admirals I can think of from the TNG era.

The other two beeing? Can only think of Admiral Ross maybe.....but apart his willingness to work with s31 when necessary we don't really see how competent he really was.

[Captain Seafort]

The other two beeing? Can only think of Admiral Ross maybe.....but apart his willingness to work with s31 when necessary we don't really see how competent he really was.

He was also C-in-C Cardassian Front, and demonstrated a good understanding of the balance required between gripping his subordinates when necessary and allowing them their head otherwise.

Hanson, aside from his understandable reluctance to believe what Riker told him about Locutus, displayed a pretty solid grip on coordinating the response to the Borg invasion.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hanson, aside from his understandable reluctance to believe what Riker told him about Locutus, displayed a pretty solid grip on coordinating the response to the Borg invasion.

We sadly never see those Klingon reinforcement, nor what was the Romulan's response to the message.

...

What would have been the Romulan's response? "There is a big Cube from the race that was responsible of the destruction of the colonies near the Neutral Zone that is going to attack Earth. Do you want to send ships pretty please?"

[Deepcrush]

From what we've seen in Voy, there was a trio of Klingon ships that engaged the Borg Cube. Of their fate was never in doubt but I'm willing to bet they spent their lives to buy time for the UFP.

[SolkaTruesilver]

From what we've seen in Voy, there was a trio of Klingon ships that engaged the Borg Cube. Of their fate was never in doubt but I'm willing to bet they spent their lives to buy time for the UFP.

Wait. What?

What episode?

[stitch626]

Unimatrix Zero I think mentioned that. It was never seen, but an assimilated Klingon officer talked about it.

[Deepcrush]

Unimatrix Zero I think mentioned that. It was never seen, but an assimilated Klingon officer talked about it.

I thought they showed the three BoP's in the attack run?

[stitch626]

Hmmm, I can't remember. They may have shown a flashback scene (VOY writers loved that).