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SolkaTruesilver wrote:

Mikey wrote: Aside from Deep's points, how useful is a Keldon-class when the arguments are being decided on a house-to-house or street-to-street basis?

Don't starship phasers can fire with Stun? The Enterprise did it once, if I remember.

And Cardi ships use phasers, so.. I think you fire stun gun in the crowd, minimum number of dead. Proceed to mass arrest.

While it is true about Fed ships, no idea about Cardie ones.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Did someone ever made head or tail of the Cardassian's hierarchical structure? Is a Legate automatically above a Gul? Is being a member of the Second Order has any specific importance in term of "grade", or is it like the U.S.'s 4th Army?

There is only one Legate at a time within the CU. He is the leader of the First Order and supreme commander of the CU's military.

The different Orders were set by their overall station (or so the show has led me to believe) in relation to their power. Whenever we hear of higher numbered Orders, they are talked about as being less important. The 1st Order was under the Legate, the 2nd Order was under Dukat who constantly was involved in high level affairs. The 3rd and 5th Orders were in part of the fleet based during the Dominion War and brought 500,000 Cardassians with them each in secret. God knows how many they had in total. But the 8th Order fell in the KE/CU war and the 11th order was thought about as a joke by Martok.

What Cardassian ships use is in dispute. Most of the time they're referred to as disruptors, same as all the other non-Fed powers but in at least one episode they refer to a Cardie ship firing a phaser. Given that disruptors seem to have one setting I'd venture that Cardies probably aren't set up to go stunning cities.

Deepcrush wrote:There is only one Legate at a time within the CU. He is the leader of the First Order and supreme commander of the CU's military.

The different Orders were set by their overall station (or so the show has led me to believe) in relation to their power. Whenever we hear of higher numbered Orders, they are talked about as being less important. The 1st Order was under the Legate, the 2nd Order was under Dukat who constantly was involved in high level affairs. The 3rd and 5th Orders were in part of the fleet based during the Dominion War and brought 500,000 Cardassians with them each in secret. God knows how many they had in total. But the 8th Order fell in the KE/CU war and the 11th order was thought about as a joke by Martok.

Now who's bullshitting? I'd be fascinated to know your sources for that lot, please provide the episode names and relevant quotes.

Deepcrush wrote:

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Did someone ever made head or tail of the Cardassian's hierarchical structure? Is a Legate automatically above a Gul? Is being a member of the Second Order has any specific importance in term of "grade", or is it like the U.S.'s 4th Army?

There is only one Legate at a time within the CU. He is the leader of the First Order and supreme commander of the CU's military.

Are you sure of this?

Besides, how does it benefit one side over the other if both sides are incapacitated?

This is just another example, as Seafort, Sionnach, myself, and others have pointed out, of why - even in the future of the future - you still need boots on the ground.

Mikey wrote:Besides, how does it benefit one side over the other if both sides are incapacitated?

This is just another example, as Seafort, Sionnach, myself, and others have pointed out, of why - even in the future of the future - you still need boots on the ground.

Because if you stun the mass of people when under attack, you then can immediately beam-in more troop division to take out the stunned troopers, put them in safety, and beam prisonners to concentration camps.

Make a big trial, declare all of them guilty, and shoot a torpedoe.

Seems like a bass-ackward way to go about things, but OK.

Mikey wrote:Seems like a bass-ackward way to go about things, but OK.

You have a way of defeating it?

SolkaTruesilver wrote:

Mikey wrote:Seems like a bass-ackward way to go about things, but OK.

You have a way of defeating it?

I think Mikey was referring to to futility of stunning people you're going to execute anyway.

As for the question, yes - hide in a house. We've never seen a stun beam go through a wall to stun someone, and the sort of orbital bombardment required to wipe out a force defending a city would also wipe out the city and all its industry and other resources, which defeats the object of taking it back.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Deepcrush wrote:There is only one Legate at a time within the CU. He is the leader of the First Order and supreme commander of the CU's military.

The different Orders were set by their overall station (or so the show has led me to believe) in relation to their power. Whenever we hear of higher numbered Orders, they are talked about as being less important. The 1st Order was under the Legate, the 2nd Order was under Dukat who constantly was involved in high level affairs. The 3rd and 5th Orders were in part of the fleet based during the Dominion War and brought 500,000 Cardassians with them each in secret. God knows how many they had in total. But the 8th Order fell in the KE/CU war and the 11th order was thought about as a joke by Martok.

Now who's bullshitting? I'd be fascinated to know your sources for that lot, please provide the episode names and relevant quotes.

Wow, sit on a pole or are you tired of picking on the new kids? If you have a problem with it, please state as such and why before making an ass of yourself yet again. You're supposed to be a mod, try to act like one for once. As to the eps number, titles, quotes and bra sizes, since I don't own the DVDs its a bit hard. Since you most likely do, go and find something that says my impression on the subject is wrong.

The Cardassian Orders were mentioned through out the series. Dukat announces his position several times, the Legate before Dukat served the 1st Order and talked about taking power (im guessing through the 1st Order), the 3rd and 5th Orders were part of Dumar's rebellion even though one of them betrayed him. The 11th Order was left behind to delay the Klingon advance during the DW and was detailed by Martok as "Old men and walking wound" that would be defeated within the week.

Captain Seafort wrote:

SolkaTruesilver wrote:

Mikey wrote:Seems like a bass-ackward way to go about things, but OK.

You have a way of defeating it?

I think Mikey was referring to to futility of stunning people you're going to execute anyway.

As for the question, yes - hide in a house. We've never seen a stun beam go through a wall to stun someone, and the sort of orbital bombardment required to wipe out a force defending a city would also wipe out the city and all its industry and other resources, which defeats the object of taking it back.

That would be not understanding the Cardassians. Every Cardassian citizen (and even non-citizens) are entitled to a fair Cardassian Trials to be condemned for their crimes, don't they?

But massive stunt rays would not damage the ground, nor the local infrastructure. When the Ent used artillery stun guns, they did not managed a rubble of the target city. So you can fire indiscriminately.

Deepcrush wrote:The Cardassian Orders were mentioned through out the series. Dukat announces his position several times, the Legate before Dukat served the 1st Order and talked about taking power (im guessing through the 1st Order), the 3rd and 5th Orders were part of Dumar's rebellion even though one of them betrayed him. The 11th Order was left behind to delay the Klingon advance during the DW and was detailed by Martok as "Old men and walking wound" that would be defeated within the week.

We should make a list of the Legates we've seen, and trying to establish if there had been more than one at the same time, which I believe is the case.

I think Legate Damar once had to meet a certain Legate while planning the rebellion, did he not?

Deepcrush wrote:The Cardassian Orders were mentioned through out the series. Dukat announces his position several times, the Legate before Dukat served the 1st Order and talked about taking power (im guessing through the 1st Order), the 3rd and 5th Orders were part of Dumar's rebellion even though one of them betrayed him. The 11th Order was left behind to delay the Klingon advance during the DW and was detailed by Martok as "Old men and walking wound" that would be defeated within the week.

The objections I have are to the statement that there's a single Legate, head of the First Order, and that Dukat was head of the Second. Consider the rest of the objection conceded - I was hasty and sweeping in lumping the whole post in.

Regarding the Legates, we've heard or seen of almost a dozen Legates, many of whom were serving simultaneously (Turrel, Parn and Ghemor in 2370, Kell and Duvak in 2374 and Hovat, Goris and Damar in 2375) plus a few others who's service probably overlapped.

Regarding Dukat, I only recall him identifying himself as being "of" the Second Order, not that he was its commander.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:But massive stunt rays would not damage the ground, nor the local infrastructure. When the Ent used artillery stun guns, they did not managed a rubble of the target city. So you can fire indiscriminately.

That's the problem - no-one inside a building will be affected.