Fighter or Fodder?

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Mikey
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Post by Mikey »

Why would you fly in atmosphere unless landing. You can easily fire from space.
Are you kidding? I've already provided plenty of atmospheric missions for a fighter earlier in this thread, but here's one great example I will repeat: how much more quickly and safely (for the Feds) would AR-558 have been if there one wing of strike fighter-type craft available for support?

True, the 'Flyer is not the right ship for that job - however, I don't want to see the 'Trek universe littered with 1500 different ypes of specialist fighter craft.

And the reason I mentioned changing the controls is this: Starfleet pilots are originally and primarily trained and the more common touch-screen interface, and don't all share Paris' love of vehicular nostalgia. It makes more sense to me to re-work the control interface than to re-train a Starfleet full of pilots.
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Post by Deepcrush »

I like the control stick because it doesn't have c-4 in it like consoles do!
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Post by Mikey »

I'm sure Starfleet will correct that design "flaw"... :?
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Post by sunnyside »

Again a couple issues. My impression of the delta flier was that it was built, as somewhat mentioned already, using borg tech. It wasn't standard issue at all and starfleet simply didn't have the ability to make such a thing during DS9 (possibly that stuff is part of why future Janeway had access to super awsome destroy everything while being indesutructable tech).

Anyway as for ground support I don't think that's something starfleet has as one of it's goals. They generally aren't trying to do the occupying force thing. I think the situations that came up in the dominion war may be a bunch of firsts for starfleet. And even if they did get into a war typically supressing ground forces can be acheived by a cap ship from orbit. Ground actions only happen when you're trying to keep facilities intact or trying to route out insurgents without "colateral damage".

Or, you know, for dramatic purpose, whatever.

Also I'm not so sure it's fair to apply "common sense" to trek with fighters while denying cap ships some. The reason stuff is so close in Trek is because they want that "wow" factor for general viewers. It's right in the tech manuals they give the writers (that explain to people who have been writing for Scooby Doo previously what phasers and transporters are). They're warned never (or rarely) have characters say things about range becuase stuff that seems reasonable would later be a problem for the special effects guys who like having all the ships in the same shot.

Finally on control panels. In Trek most ships employ some varient of fly-by-wire you use the panel to tell the ship what you want it to do and the computer tries to make it happen. At the slow speed point blank stuff we see on the show you could maybe use a joystick. But if the other ships started actually using their impulse engines "realistically" a human simply couldn't react fast enough when you're zipping around at 50,000+ meters per second.
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Post by Deepcrush »

True enough.
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Post by Mikey »

Anyway as for ground support I don't think that's something starfleet has as one of it's goals. They generally aren't trying to do the occupying force thing. I think the situations that came up in the dominion war may be a bunch of firsts for starfleet. And even if they did get into a war typically supressing ground forces can be acheived by a cap ship from orbit. Ground actions only happen when you're trying to keep facilities intact or trying to route out insurgents without "colateral damage".
OK, but now that such a situation HAS come about, and the need for such a vehicle demonstrated, why not use a fighter for such missions - especially when fighters capable of such action already exist? And orbital cover/bombardment is next to impossible with your own forces within ground-combat range of your target.

As far as the things we've seen being as they are for dramatic or "eye candy" purposes, that may be true - but we'd have damn little to talk about if we didn't decide to try to find in-universe rationales for these things.

But if the other ships started actually using their impulse engines "realistically" a human simply couldn't react fast enough when you're zipping around at 50,000+ meters per second.
Absolutely correct. We're not just talking about orbital speeds for these fighters; we're talking about .25c, and even low warp. "Direct" human directional commands are simply too slow and inefficient to cope with those speeds.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

sunnyside wrote:Again a couple issues. My impression of the delta flier was that it was built, as somewhat mentioned already, using borg tech. It wasn't standard issue at all and starfleet simply didn't have the ability to make such a thing during DS9 (possibly that stuff is part of why future Janeway had access to super awsome destroy everything while being indesutructable tech).
It couldn't have been that special given that Voyager was able to build it in a few days, without external support. They may have incorporated ideas of Tuvok's and Seven's into some of the systems, but they were still limited by the single-ship industrial base they had available.
Anyway as for ground support I don't think that's something starfleet has as one of it's goals. They generally aren't trying to do the occupying force thing. I think the situations that came up in the dominion war may be a bunch of firsts for starfleet. And even if they did get into a war typically supressing ground forces can be acheived by a cap ship from orbit. Ground actions only happen when you're trying to keep facilities intact or trying to route out insurgents without "colateral damage".
Orbital bombardment can only destroy, it can't capture. Capturing territory is what wins wars, not outright destruction. Ultimately, therefore, the only way to win a war is to get boots on the ground, clearing out your opponent street by street, house by house, and room by room, not by lobbing multi-megaton bombs at them from orbit.
Also I'm not so sure it's fair to apply "common sense" to trek with fighters while denying cap ships some. The reason stuff is so close in Trek is because they want that "wow" factor for general viewers. It's right in the tech manuals they give the writers (that explain to people who have been writing for Scooby Doo previously what phasers and transporters are). They're warned never (or rarely) have characters say things about range becuase stuff that seems reasonable would later be a problem for the special effects guys who like having all the ships in the same shot.
That's probably why they have these point-blank slugging matches, but it doesn't change the fact that typical combat distances in Trek are measured in kilometres.
Finally on control panels. In Trek most ships employ some varient of fly-by-wire you use the panel to tell the ship what you want it to do and the computer tries to make it happen. At the slow speed point blank stuff we see on the show you could maybe use a joystick. But if the other ships started actually using their impulse engines "realistically" a human simply couldn't react fast enough when you're zipping around at 50,000+ meters per second.
When have we ever seen impulse engines deliver those sorts of speeds? Sure at warp you need precise course changes, but at sublight, in the sort of dogfights we're talking about, the extremely fast reaction time of joysticks (like the E-E's in Insurrection) vs typing out a precise course change on a keyboard makes them the better choice.
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Post by Deepcrush »

The c-4 in my touch screen still makes me need new pants. Who came up with the idea of putting high pressure plasma in a touch screen, that just wasn't smart!
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Mikey wrote:
But if the other ships started actually using their impulse engines "realistically" a human simply couldn't react fast enough when you're zipping around at 50,000+ meters per second.
Absolutely correct. We're not just talking about orbital speeds for these fighters; we're talking about .25c, and even low warp. "Direct" human directional commands are simply too slow and inefficient to cope with those speeds.
When have we ever seen Trek ships moving at significant fractions of c? Even after Voyager had fallen out of a slipstream tunnel and was risking structural collapse if it didn't land, it was moving no faster than a few hundred metres per second.
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Post by sunnyside »

Trek ships move at speeds like that all the time. When they start off near a planet and shortly thereafter are diving into the sun without using the warp engines they didn't get there by going at hundreds of meters per second. And when they say full impulse they mean .25c (not sure if that exact number is cannon, fannon, or tech manual though), but it is cannon that impulse engines can do 80% of light speed. And again they often get from point A to point B at speeds requiring velocities in the .25c range.

However you'll never "see" it because, well, you can't. I imagine telling the special effects guys that you want them to show a .25c fly by attack would result in a Spock like eyebrow raise, or perhaps laughter.

EDIT: I'm not so sure in Trek you generally do need to get boots on the ground like you do nowdays. If you aren't interested in getting their tech precise orbital blasts would be pretty effective. What you need troops for is suppressing a population and dealing with insurgency. Things starfleet would say they'd never do.

Though yes now that they have had the situation come up where they do need to capture stuff without just blasting a building they might start developing tactics for it. Though I'd expect it to be more of a special forces thing, and less of an Army type thing.


Oh and as for a ships carrying a small number of fighters I don't think that would work so well. Most ships have phasers/disrupters pointing into every arc, and the ones not pointing at the cap ships would generally have to be silent as they'd have no targets. A small number of fighters would just let those weapons see a little extra use. I think against cap ships fighters would have to operate as coordinated squadrons.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

sunnyside wrote:Trek ships move at speeds like that all the time. When they start off near a planet and shortly thereafter are diving into the sun without using the warp engines they didn't get there by going at hundreds of meters per second. And when they say full impulse they mean .25c (not sure if that exact number is cannon, fannon, or tech manual though), but it is cannon that impulse engines can do 80% of light speed. And again they often get from point A to point B at speeds requiring velocities in the .25c range.
Very well, conceeded. What's your source for the "80% lightspeed" figure? The 0.25c figure is from the TNG tech manual, and "full impulse" is probably a measure of acceleration rather than speed. Let me therefore rephrase - when have we ever seen them achieve such relative speeds in combat situations?
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Never. It seems likely that Federation and other races vessels slow down to engage in combat. Perhaps their tracking systems aren't up to targeting such a fast moving ship.
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Post by Mikey »

Or perhaps at relativistic speeds, you stnad the chance of fragging yourself...
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

True, we've seen that low relative velocity colisions could tear a ship apart. And going as fast as possible leaves you with little time to react to objects or ships in front of you.
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Post by sunnyside »

I believe .8C is from the first movie. Also the phrase "full impulse" refers to a speed because that's the max speed they're supposed to go. If you actually operated at .8c you'd have some weird reletevistic stuff.

As for on screen I bet there are a number of viewscreen battles that have taken place at those speeds. However once the special effects guys had the ability to actually show ships fighting the breaks were firmly applied, because you simply can't have the ships going much faster and still effectivley show them onscreen.

But I'm willing to allow that there be in universe reasons for doing what they do, I just ask you apply the same limitations to fighters (no photon torpedos). Yes maybe the heros did it once, but when the heros have to they can also go to higher impulse speeds. See how that works?

But the high speed thing does explain the console nicely. Plus it means you need a lot less pilot training.
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