Would you do a Ransom?

[Teaos]

O-

[katefan]

Try telling that to them. They argue to me that I have no reason to be morally against it. They plonk it in front of me and tell me to eat it. I dont. So then I go without food. My cooking skills are awful. i cant live on Baked beans for the rest of my life, so i have to eat it.

I think part of it is because they don't understand why someone would want to be vegetarian.

anyway, we're TR-116'ing.

back to topic.

i dont have anything more to say to it XD

You and my favorite singer/song writer Kate Bush have something in common in that she is a vegetarian.

Me, I love the taste of meat, can't get enough of it. I don't think a whole lot about what went into what put the meat on my plate, but I guess that is just the civilized part of me. If I lived next to a slaughterhouse and heard the cows or pigs screaming in fear I would probably think twice.

Funny ancedote (well, funny to me, anyway); there is a movie called American Flyers, it's about cycling. In one scene a vegetarian says to a main character "When you eat meat, you eat fear". Upon seeing this scene my brother Donald immediately said, "I like my fear well done."

If you knew Donald, you would believe it.

[katefan]

Back to the subject at hand, I mis-spoke. Instead of "sentient" I should have said "intelligent". As in comparable to humans in intelligence.

It is true that we can exist without meat and that an absolutely moral society would abandon the practice. Of course, this comes down to what we do with all the domesticated animals we keep on hand to eat in the first place. Since we have largely wiped out predators in most civilized areas the domestic animals would over-breed and we would find ourselves killing them just to make room for human populations. Worse, pigs go feral fast and are a serious danger. They are omnivorous and can be serious bad asses in the wild.

But back to Ransom and killing intelligent beings. Ransom did not have to kill them, he did so in the pursuit of a goal, getting home. To him the goal was worth killing these aliens even after he discovered they were an intelligent species, and I do not ascribe to that. The primary goal is survival, and if it came down between killing these aliens for Ransom to save his crew and ship, then by all means I can see that. But survival was not on the table, getting home was. And Ransom and his people did not have to get home to survive.

If I were stuck in a foreign country and were told I could have a plane ticket, all I would have to do is kill some foreign guy, I would not do it. "But the foreign guy is a biped like you!" you say. But in the 'Trek universe there are intelligent beings who aren't bipeds, and according to what we have seen since TOS physical shape does not matter, the mind does.

Ransom is a murderer and a disgrace to both humanity and Starfleet.

[Teaos]

Back to the subject at hand, I mis-spoke. Instead of "sentient" I should have said "intelligent". As in comparable to humans in intelligence.

Ah... no.

They are mildly intelligent, maybe a bit more so than a Dolphin, no where near a human. They could form a simple sentence and could do basic reasoning, so can a monkey, well apart from the talking but that more due to the fact that they can't physically speak, but they do have their own language and way to communicate.

[katefan]

Back to the subject at hand, I mis-spoke. Instead of "sentient" I should have said "intelligent". As in comparable to humans in intelligence.

Ah... no.

They are mildly intelligent, maybe a bit more so than a Dolphin, no where near a human. They could form a simple sentence and could do basic reasoning, so can a monkey, well apart from the talking but that more due to the fact that they can't physically speak, but they do have their own language and way to communicate.

So physical speech is a requirement for sentience? Guess that means all those Trill symbiotes can be put on the menu. They can't speak without a host, after all. And we would not know they were sentient unless they were part of a host or communicating telepathically with a mentalist.

They have their own language, and you said they might be more intelligent than dolphins. By that reasoning if Vulcans were violent they should be able to wipe out humans because humans are smart, just not quite smart enough.

Me, if I see a race that has a complex language, social skills, exhibits rage when members of their own species are attacked and murdered and fully understand the concept of both revenge and justice, then I would regard them as sentient enough to be worthy of at least a modicum of respect.

[Teaos]

Me, if I see a race that has a complex language

Complex language? "Give us equinox" You must have the most stimulating conversations with 2 year olds.

social skills

I must have missed the part of the episode when the aliens went out on dates...

exhibits rage when members of their own species are attacked and murdered

Ever watched the Discovery channel? Lions get pissed off when you mess with one of their friends.

[katefan]

Okay, fine, go ahead and cherry pick my response, ignore the parts you have no easy answers for.

[Tsukiyumi]

Ooooh, snap.

[Teaos]

Okay, fine, go ahead and cherry pick my response, ignore the parts you have no easy answers for.

I ripped apart your points. What did I miss?

So physical speech is a requirement for sentience? Guess that means all those Trill symbiotes can be put on the menu. They can't speak without a host, after all. And we would not know they were sentient unless they were part of a host or communicating telepathically with a mentalist.

WTF is that in responce to? You were the one who said language is important. I said it doesnt prove anything.

They have their own language, and you said they might be more intelligent than dolphins. By that reasoning if Vulcans were violent they should be able to wipe out humans because humans are smart, just not quite smart enough.

That doesnt even deserve a responce. Vulcans are not smarter just more advanced technologically, look up the difference. Humans can be, and have been smarter than Vulcans, these aliens cannot reach our level,

Satisfied now that I responded to your useless points?

[katefan]

Complex language? "Give us equinox" You must have the most stimulating conversations with 2 year olds.

You can tell a race's linguistic skills by just a few sentences? Going by that reasoning then Janeway should have assumed immediately that Species 8472 were morons. After all, all Kes got was a few scant sentences.

However, the Equinox race actually showed more sentience, negotiating with Janeway.

I must have missed the part of the episode when the aliens went out on dates...

You must have also missed the part where they negoiated with an alien race (humans) and adhered to the agreement, allowing Voyager to leave unmolested once they had destroyed Equinox. Since the entire race called off the attack that implies some sort of advanced social communication and/or hierchy.

Ever watched the Discovery channel? Lions get pissed off when you mess with one of their friends.

I would not use lions as a good example of social behavior, as male lions have been known to eat cubs to get their mothers to mate again.

All sorts of animals get pissed off; bees, for example. But you cannot negotiate with bees or lions.

Everyone who said you would pull a Ransom, it sounds to me like you think just because the aliens look different, or you do not perceive them as intelligent as you, that it is all right to exploit them, to take what you want from them. Hmmm, a philosophy where you oppress another intelligent race for looking/acting different and posess perceived physical differences/flaws, and posessing property that you might like, or even converting that race into products (like soap) useful to you. Does this sound familiar?

Wow, and you guys call yourself Star Trek fans, where the point of 'Trek is to celebrate diversity, to cherish it, value it. IDIC, people, remember?

[katefan]

I ripped apart your points. What did I miss?

Considering how you responded to the rest of the post, you answered your own question.

So physical speech is a requirement for sentience? Guess that means all those Trill symbiotes can be put on the menu. They can't speak without a host, after all. And we would not know they were sentient unless they were part of a host or communicating telepathically with a mentalist.

WTF is that in responce to? You were the one who said language is important. I said it doesnt prove anything.

You said were the one that brought up "spoken language" in your earlier response.

That doesnt even deserve a responce.

And yet you responded anyway. Hmmmm...

Vulcans are not smarter just more advanced technologically, look up the difference.

Anyone who has watched TOS can see how superior Spock's intellect is to the humans around him. Vulcans are renowned for their intelligence, it is their thing. They have far more advanced brains, giving them telepathy, control over their own bodies, and if Spock is anything to go by then they are a helluva lot smarter than humans.

Humans can be, and have been smarter than Vulcans, these aliens cannot reach our level,

Since we briefly saw them in two episodes, you are assuming a lot. And Ransom assumed a lot, too. Since it would have been inconvenient to even speculate what sort of society these aliens might have, he did not bother even exploring the possibility the aliens might have been much more advanced than he had so far seen. But with a little more effort Janeway was able to effect rudimentary communication with them. The same sort of rudimentary communication necessary in all first contacts.

As for some humans being smarter than Vulcans, this is true. Based on what has been strongly implied since TOS Vulcans are the big brains of the Federation.

Satisfied now that I responded to your useless points?

Why, yes, I am. Thank you for asking.

[Teaos]

Considering how you responded to the rest of the post, you answered your own question.

I showed the rest of your points were useless and didnt need a responce.

How many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man? RESPOND!!!

You said were the one that brought up "spoken language" in your earlier response.

You said they can speak and are thus intelligent, I said that doesnt prove anything since they said "give us equinox" not really stretching anyones language skills there...

And yet you responded anyway. Hmmmm...

Cause you got bitchy when I ignored useless points and only responded to the new points.

Anyone who has watched TOS can see how superior Spock's intellect is to the humans around him. Vulcans are renowned for their intelligence, it is their thing. They have far more advanced brains, giving them telepathy, control over their own bodies, and if Spock is anything to go by then they are a helluva lot smarter than humans.

Firstly: Telepathy =/= superior. Telepathy is a natural talent, great white shakes can sense electric fields in the water, are they superior to humans as well?

Second: Spook was indeed intelligent, so was Einstein and Newton. Vulcans are not naturally smarter than humans, humans are naturally smarter than these aliens?

Since we briefly saw them in two episodes, you are assuming a lot. And Ransom assumed a lot, too. Since it would have been inconvenient to even speculate what sort of society these aliens might have, he did not bother even exploring the possibility the aliens might have been much more advanced than he had so far seen. But with a little more effort Janeway was able to effect rudimentary communication with them. The same sort of rudimentary communication necessary in all first contacts.

They blew a fluet and these aliens came and did a dance. And we dont know what other interaction the had, making the assumption they are on the same level as a dolphin seems to be pretty good.

[KuvahMagh]

Using spoken language as the basis for an intelligence level is off base in Trek. We have the Universal Translator that for all we know could allow Humans to communicate with Lions, it certainly seems pretty magical in that it can instantly pick up a new language and then replace the speakers words with the translated words without even changing their voice or having any kind of apparent lag.

But back to Ransom and killing intelligent beings. Ransom did not have to kill them, he did so in the pursuit of a goal, getting home. To him the goal was worth killing these aliens even after he discovered they were an intelligent species, and I do not ascribe to that. The primary goal is survival, and if it came down between killing these aliens for Ransom to save his crew and ship, then by all means I can see that. But survival was not on the table, getting home was. And Ransom and his people did not have to get home to survive.

I said it earlier but... Ransom had an obligation to his crew, their families waiting back home & to Starfleet. He should have told everyone what he intended to do, those that were against it could have been dropped off somewhere while the rest went home.

[Nickswitz]

I agree with what Kuvah said, drop off the ones that don't agree and then get home.

This is going to be one of those debates for the ages.

[Tsukiyumi]

This is going to be one of those debates for the ages.

It's been a while since we've had a good one, so... Huzzah!