The Die Is Cast Question

[SolkaTruesilver]

But ultimately, this is a nil concern. We aren't fighting "The Dominion", but "The Jem'Hadar". The point of the discussion is what happens if the Founder-wiping airstrike succeeded.

How long could the Vorta keep the Jem Hadar on a leash? How large are their current reserve of White?

Could the crippled Dominion have the patience to mount such a patient battleplan solely to "avenge the Founders"?

edit: or would the Jem'Hadar commit suicide, like they did in "The Ship"?

[stitch626]

The Jemhadar and Vorta would last as long as the white did. After it was gone... everything of the Dominion would die very quickly.

[Captain Seafort]

The Jemhadar and Vorta would last as long as the white did. After it was gone... everything of the Dominion would die very quickly.

The white wouldn't "run out" - its production and distribution is controlled by the Vorta, not the Founders, so the real question would be one of whether the Jem'Hadar would a) continue to follow the orders of the Vorta, b) mutiny, or c) commit mass suicide. If the Vorta were able to conceal the extermination of the Founders then the outcome would be a), if not then it would probably be a combination of b) and c), with c) being more common based on "The Ship".

[Reliant121]

Gotta keep in mind that the Vorta were dependent on the founders as well (I believe the Founders control Vorta cloning, and the Vorta control Jem'Hadar cloning). Although I'm not sure on that front.

[Captain Seafort]

Gotta keep in mind that the Vorta were dependent on the founders as well

Not AFAIK - the Vorta revered the Founders for genetically engineering them into the beings they were, but control of the cloning facilities fell to the Vorta themselves.

[Reliant121]

Ah well. In that case it does boil down effectively to what you stated.

Either they somehow convince the Jem'Hadar that the Changelings are in hiding or something like that.

Or things go to hell. I wonder if the Vorta would try and sell themselves to the Federation for information?

[Sionnach Glic]

Is there anything to suggest that the Founders were the only ones to be capable of manufacturing the White? I don't recall hearing anything to that effect in the show. Indeed, given the sheer ammount of it that would be needed, it stands to reason that there are probably quite a few manufacturing plants scattered across the Dominion. Even with the Founders gone, a number of production facilities are likely to survive. The main question is what happens when word spreads that their gods are dead.

The question of what would happen were the Founders to be killed off is certainly an interesting one. Would their believers commit mass suicide? Would they embark on a xenocidal crusade to wipe out the killers of their gods? Would they simply convince themselves that the Founders never really died, but instead "ascended" to a greater form of existence (the UFP's run into such events with an amusing frequency, so the Dominion has probably run into its fair share of "evolving" races as well)? Would all order throughout the Dominion break down, causing their empire to collapse into a number of small, warring states as influential Vorta and Jem'hadar try to declare themselves heirs to the Dominion?

There's no solid answer we can give to this question for one simple reason - religious fanatics are unpredictable. And that's precisely what the Dominion is - an empire of fanatics. I can easily see some groups (perhaps even whole planets) committing mass suicide to try to "follow" their gods into the afterlife. Similarly I can see large groups dismissing the idea as UFP propaganda and complete nonsense regarldess of how much evidence is shown to them - we've already seen such mindsets amongst our own race. At the same time I can simply see charismatic governors or generals trying to sieze control for their own gain, or perhaps trying to organise a retaliatory strike against Earth.

My own opinion is that it would be a combination of the above, with the Vorta desperately trying to restore some semblence of order and control across the Dominion. However, regardless of their attempts I see it as being quite likely that the Dominion would eventually collapse.

With no clear line of succession, the Dominion is now headless. For the first month or so, chaos will reign across the Founders' former empire. Mass suicide, spontaneous retaliatory military strikes against the UFP and their allies, religious turmoil between groups who argue violently over whether the Founders are truly dead, a breakdown of infrastructure across the Dominion, and a halting of nearly all production as orders cease to arrive and supplies fail to reach their destination. Entire planets and fleets of Jem'hadar may die off once the KW shipments fall into dissaray with the Founders' death. After a while, though, local authorities will start to reassert control, effectively taking over from the Founders. Despite a hefty population loss due to suicide and turmoil, order will start to be more or less restored. The interesting question is what happens next.

With most affairs now being run by local authorities, the question of just who's in charge will arise quite quickly. The simple fact is that a power struggle will ensue. It's highly unlikely that the Founders ever left a note specifying just who should take over if they were to die (and even if they did, it's unlikely that many would heed it). Thus the more influential governors and military leaders will start to declare themselves heirs to the Dominion.

Conflict will quickly break out between these factions. The Ketracel White production plants will quickly be seized by the more powerful of the factions, but it's highly unlikely that any one faction could re-assert control over the entire Dominion. Much of the wars between the different factions would be fought either to capture or defend the KW plants from their rivals, and given the vital importance of these plants the battles will most certainly be bloody. Much of the Dominion's fleet will be wiped out in these battles, which will lead to the next occurance.

With the Dominion now dead as a single strong empire, the various conquered races within the Dominion are going to start pushing for their own independance. The Jem'hadar garrisons (assuming they survived the initial chaos) are unlikely to be able to single-handedly contain major planetary uprisings without reinforcements. But with much of their fleets destroyed and a pressing need to heavily garrison the KW plants, it's likely that only the strongest of the successor states could hold onto these rebelling planets - and even then it's probable that they'd simply give up their more far-flung subjects.

These rebelling systems are almost certainly going to be backed by neighbouring powers in the Gamma Quadrant. The collapse of the Dominion as a superpower will be quickly noted, and its neighbours will be quick to capitalise on their old enemy's weakness. Many of the Dominion's peripheral systems will almost certainly be lost to attacks from their neighbours, while rebelling systems will be backed and turned into buffer-states. This also brings up the very serious threat of the destruction of the KW plants. The loss of even a single one could cripple the hold of a successor state across an entire sector, leaving it ripe for conquest by neighbouring powers.

Realising the severity of this new threat, it's likely that the successor states will agree to a temporary alliance against their expanding neighbours. However, this will most likely just prompt their neighbours to form their own version of the UFP/KE/RSE alliance. With much of their military strength destroyed by the civil war and no real unity, it's unlikely that an alliance between the successor states would do little more than delay the inevitable. Facing military expansion from their neighbours, uprisings from conquered races and the destruction of KW plants around the edges of their empire, it's highly unlikely that the Dominion remnants would be able to put up much of a fight. While the KW plants would have remained intact out of necessity during the civil war, shipyards would have been priority targets (particularly given that each successor state would know the location of their rivals' shipyards). With many of these destroyed it's unlikely that the Dominion Fleet could match their enemies - and they'll almost certainly be unable to replace losses quickly enough.

With the situation going from bad to worse, it's likely that another wave of mass suicides would further hamper the attempts of the Dominion remnants to hold off their enemies. Each KW plant destroyed represents a massive blow. None of them can be rebuilt, meaning that the Dominion's ability to project its power lessens permanently with each loss. Attempts to defend them would be hampered by the lack of sufficient shipyards and the loss of resources as their enemies expand. Attempts to keep the plants secret would be hampered by the inevitable defection of high-ranking officials seeking to save themselves.

I'd wager that within a year of the Founders' death, the Dominion will have ceased to exist - crippled by civil war it will have been carved up by their old enemies and the races they had formerly subjugated.

In the Alpha Quadrant the death of the Founders would result in a collapse of order amongst the military. Leaderless, the Dominion's forces in the quadrant would be incapable of responding sufficiently to attacks by the UFP/KE/RSE. We might also see spontaneous attacks from small groups of ships, whose commanders decided to kill as many of those who murdered their gods before being killed themselves. Such actions would further weaken the Dominion's foothold in the AQ. At this point a concentrated attack could force them completely out of the quadrant altogether, pushing them back beyond the wormhole.

[kostmayer]

If Odo was the last remaining Founder, would the Vorta or Jem'Hadar worship him as a god, and defer to his authority?

[Sionnach Glic]

That's a good question. It's possible they may instead regard him as the devil, as he was aided those who killed their gods. It's likely that you'd end up with a religious schism, with some regarding him as the One True God and others regarding him as evil incarnate.

[SolkaTruesilver]

There would still be Founders existing in the AQ and the GQ that wouldn't have been in the homeworld at the time. You'd end up with a handful of Founders, maybe two or three scores.

And they would be quite xenophobic and violent, I'd wager.

[Deepcrush]

And they would be quite xenophobic and violent, I'd wager.

They already are, though a good culling may temper their moods in the vain of survival.

[SolkaTruesilver]

And they would be quite xenophobic and violent, I'd wager.

They already are, though a good culling may temper their moods in the vain of survival.

Or the opposite. Make them even more violent and brutal, as they can't afford to be infiltrators into Solid Society anymore; they only have the J'H and the Vorta as tools now.

[Sionnach Glic]

There would still be Founders existing in the AQ and the GQ that wouldn't have been in the homeworld at the time. You'd end up with a handful of Founders, maybe two or three scores.

And they would be quite xenophobic and violent, I'd wager.

I was under the impression that S31's plan was to hit the Founders when they were all in the one place at the one time, but I may be recalling incorrectly.

Logicaly, there would indeed be at least a handful still left. In such an instance I doubt that much would change were the majority of the Founders killed off. The Dominion would still have a clear leadership - one which would be a lot more careful about gathering together from that point onwards and I can see them abandoning their infiltration attempts. In terms of ideology I can't see it doing anything more than seemingly confirming the Founders' belief that solids are evil. Though this may lead to it being a lot harder to get the Dominion to agree to a ceasefire in the future.

Though with not many Founders left, the question of just how Founders reproduce and how long they can live for becomes rather important. Can they repopulate? If not, just how long can they keep going for? Long enough to slowly hand over power to another race (such as the Vorta)?

[SolkaTruesilver]

I was under the impression that S31's plan was to hit the Founders when they were all in the one place at the one time, but I may be recalling incorrectly.

Because you are confusing two plots to destroy the Founders. S31 plan was a virus to kill the founders. Tal-Shiar and Obsidian Order was to bombard their planet. S31 infected most of the Founders when Odo went to be judged, and my guess is that the rest of the founders were infected while making contact with those who were present to judge Odo, seeing as they have little problem melding when they can afford it.

Though with not many Founders left, the question of just how Founders reproduce and how long they can live for becomes rather important. Can they repopulate? If not, just how long can they keep going for? Long enough to slowly hand over power to another race (such as the Vorta)?

We don't know much about that. We know there are something similar to babies, like Odo was, or the little one that he found in "the Begotten", but the Founder Leader's answer, when he asked: "A baby?", may indicate that it's a simplification, or even a mere analogy to Changeling biology/reality.

Ultimately, I don't see why Changelings would want to reproduce. They are, after all, "The Ocean that becomes a Drop". In one way, they are kind of like the Borg, a common counsciousness that can split into many parts when needed. When you reproduce... what happens?

These answers needs further knowledge of Changeling physiology. As for example, how much importance do a Changeling gives to the goo that gets split from their main body? I remember Odo's annoyance at Bashir's request.

[Sionnach Glic]

Because you are confusing two plots to destroy the Founders. S31 plan was a virus to kill the founders. Tal-Shiar and Obsidian Order was to bombard their planet. S31 infected most of the Founders when Odo went to be judged, and my guess is that the rest of the founders were infected while making contact with those who were present to judge Odo, seeing as they have little problem melding when they can afford it.

No, I recalled the S31 plan correctly. Your previous remarks on them threw me off a bit. The plan was indeed aimed at wiping out the entire Founder race.

We don't know much about that. We know there are something similar to babies, like Odo was, or the little one that he found in "the Begotten", but the Founder Leader's answer, when he asked: "A baby?", may indicate that it's a simplification, or even a mere analogy to Changeling biology/reality.

Indeed. It's completely up in the air as to how it all happens.

Ultimately, I don't see why Changelings would want to reproduce. They are, after all, "The Ocean that becomes a Drop". In one way, they are kind of like the Borg, a common counsciousness that can split into many parts when needed. When you reproduce... what happens?

They may be able to divide up if necessary, but that doesn't seem to duplicate their conciousness. This means that, with the fate of their empire in question, they'd certainly have a motive to want to reproduce.

These answers needs further knowledge of Changeling physiology. As for example, how much importance do a Changeling gives to the goo that gets split from their main body? I remember Odo's annoyance at Bashir's request.

Agreed. We've got nothing to go on but random speculation.