Picard's Worst Decision

The Next Generation
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Deepcrush
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And placing the "needs" of a few hundred hypocritical, luddite squatters above a medical revolution that would benefit billions is "right" is it?
It is about the rights of one PERSON vs the wants of another. By your idea, China should be aloud to take over England just for the benefits of its location. So, have you invited China to invade lately?
The fact that the Federation could use it help billions, whereas the Ba'ku were only 600, and would be relocated to another planet with as close a match to the environment of the Briar Patch planet as possible.
Thats not a right, that's just greed. You're still unable to understand such a simple thing.
So, as well as not understanding the moral principle of "the needs of the many..", you don't even know your own country's history. The American revolution ended with the Treaty of Paris in 1782, after the defeat at Yorktown - itself due almost entirely to the French naval victory at the Battle of the Chesapeake. The American contribution to the overall victory comsisted of being stubborn buggers who managed to avoid total defeat long enough for the French to decide to join in.
Wrong, fighting continued along the Proclamation Line for another 40 years. My family fought there since before the Rev and even after the end of Second War of Independence (1812 war). The French Navel battle cut off retreat from the James River. The British Line was already broken. With reinforcements they could have held out but without them the stalemate was broken. Even with extra troops the British forces had no supply of food and would have starved. It wasn't so much a Surrender as both sides just knew who had won already and that more fighting would gain nothing. Also to add, Yorktown was the last open battle of the war but by no means did the fighting end. Its hard to believe how pathetic your history education is.
The War of 1812 started (surprisingly enough) in 1812, when the US Army invaded and attempted to annex Canada. They got a stuffing at the hands of the local TA, who went on to burn down Washinton DC, and then went home. The war ended in 1815, once it was established that the US had learnt its lesson.
Are you really that ****ing stupid! How many inbreds are there in your family!? I mean really!!! I know that many brits are stuck up about things but "learnt its lesson". England GAVE UP! Or you didn't get the memo? Maybe your mother/sister forgot to tell you this but... British troops didn't "Go Home" after the razed DC. They went back to the mouth of the Chesapeake, raped and razed whole towns on the go! Turned north to attack Baltimore and then we had the Battle of Northpoint. Which later became North Point Road, WHERE I WAS RAISED! It seems you like to forget those little details about getting your asses handed to you by a bunch of rabble and watch your army fall apart in front of you! Also the start of the war wasn't from the invasion of Canada, that was just when the war started. Some retard like yourself thought it would be good to payback England for the Impressment that had been going on. Of course go figure that wasn't even covered in the treaty and had to be added later on.

The whole battle over New Orleans was because England wanted to make up for the ass kicking they got at North Point and McHenry. England wanted to show that the recent losses against the Americans were only set backs and not a sign of defeat. N.O. changed this as the dream of turning the war in US favor. Even your own Duke of Wellington laughed at what he heard about the war and how England was fairing.

I confess that I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territory on the point of attack. you can not on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territory except in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power... Then if this reasoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any.
-Ian Toll-
I don't know. I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.
Again, this is called greed. No wonder we hated your people for so long!
Yes, yes, you have a distorted idea of right and wrong, I got that. If the Fed/Son'a alliance was simply aiming to wipe out the Ba'ku, or dump them on some barely-inhabitable rock, or the radiation would only help a few thousand people, I'd agree that it doesn't balance. Since this is not the case, you're spouting gibberish.
Distorted? Your whole view is that if you're bigger then you have the right to take something away from someone else. Come over here and try that 'again'. You can get a third taste of what its like to get molly whopped by the little guy. You might even learn a lesson this time around.
I don't know. I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.
What do you mean you don't know? You're preaching about how this is 'right' aren't you! You should know full well what the number is. If it is right then it has a point. If it has a point then it must be defined. Where is your defined point? What is the number that makes it wrong? When does to few become to many? If you can't answer such a simple question then you should try shutting your mouth until you can grow up some.
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ChakatBlackstar wrote:Funny, similar things were said about ever other forced relocation. We're not killing them with guns, we're killing them slowly. What if these people suffer from territorial attachment syndrome? What if they can't adapt to the new planet?
Evidence for any of this?
Right...then where did the Son'a acquire the ships and weapons in such a short period of time? The technology must have come from somewhere. A handful of Son'a threatened the E-E, and would've destroyed it without the Riker maneuver interference. What happens when the Ba'ku get pissed off, rebuild their technology and get their revenge?
The Ba'ku have no industry whatsoever. They're not just pre-warp, they're pre-industrial, and with a population of just 600 they have no means of building up any industrial base. How the Son'a got their ships is anyone's guess, but there's no way the Ba'ku would be able to recreate such a feat.
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Cpl Kendall wrote:Here's a thought: if the technobabble medical BS is going to extend the life of Federation citizens, then use it on the bloody Baku as well. Then they could live in their new home and still live for a lot longer.
I have to agree with this. There isn't any reason why the Baku couldn't continue to benefit from the rings even on another world. It was a greedy move on their part not to look to a future need but their own happiness.
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I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.
I forgot to add this but I also agree with this.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:*snip bollocks*
Deep, you're an idiot. To the extent that I think George Bush has a rival for the title of "stupidest waste of oxygen on the planet".

"Second War of Independence"? :lol:

Invading someone else's country is a "war of Independence"?

Also, it appears that in your mind (sorry, head, "mind" might be stretching the definition somewhat) that prioritising the vast benefits that the majority would gain from the ring harvesting over the preference of a small bunch of selfish luddites squatters for one planet over another is "greed".

Going by the rationale of the rest of the planet, the Ba'ku are the greedy ones, in hogging the beneficial effects of the radiation to themselves, and expressing horror that anyone would want to process said radiation, and make it available to orders of magnitude more people than their small community.
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Captain Seafort wrote:
ChakatBlackstar wrote:Funny, similar things were said about ever other forced relocation. We're not killing them with guns, we're killing them slowly. What if these people suffer from territorial attachment syndrome? What if they can't adapt to the new planet?
Evidence for any of this?
Right...then where did the Son'a acquire the ships and weapons in such a short period of time? The technology must have come from somewhere. A handful of Son'a threatened the E-E, and would've destroyed it without the Riker maneuver interference. What happens when the Ba'ku get pissed off, rebuild their technology and get their revenge?
The Ba'ku have no industry whatsoever. They're not just pre-warp, they're pre-industrial, and with a population of just 600 they have no means of building up any industrial base. How the Son'a got their ships is anyone's guess, but there's no way the Ba'ku would be able to recreate such a feat.
Ok, the first part of this is true. There is no evidence that they would die off, there is also no evidence that they wouldn't. That is where the problem sits in all of this.

The second part of what you said was just really weird and I'm wondering if you forgot to add a line to make some sense of your thought to it.
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Deepcrush wrote:
I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.
I forgot to add this but I also agree with this.
:? Then why have you been objecting to it for the last two or three pages?
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Deepcrush wrote:The second part of what you said was just really weird and I'm wondering if you forgot to add a line to make some sense of your thought to it.
What's the problem? Without an industrial base you can't build starships, and the Ba'ku have neither an industrial base nor the ability to build one - there's too few of them.
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Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:
I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.
I forgot to add this but I also agree with this.
:? Then why have you been objecting to it for the last two or three pages?
Because you have been speaking about it as a moral right. Which it is not. The fact that I would do the very same thing as you doesn't make it right. It is a want of the federation. Nothing more. My understanding of morals and honor do give me a place to judge action. But as I have said before, morals and honor do not always apply to the needs or wants of the time. The US does not need Oil from the middle east, in fact that which we do take from there we sell to europe and Japan. Very little ever comes to the States. Most of the US used Oil comes from Canada and Mexico.

Right and wrong means that very same right and wrong must be the same for everyone. Not just a planet or a group but everyone. As I said only a moment ago, I feel that the Baku stance was one of even greater greed then that of the federation. The world belonged to the UFP which by stance gives them the right to do with as the please. On the other hand, the Baku had made a home of a world that the federation cared nothing about, in the end giving up the rights to that very same world. In the end, neither side was in the right for what they had done with left picard and crew in the place of having to pick a side. They picked the moral right vs the wanted gain.
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Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:The second part of what you said was just really weird and I'm wondering if you forgot to add a line to make some sense of your thought to it.
What's the problem? Without an industrial base you can't build starships, and the Ba'ku have neither an industrial base nor the ability to build one - there's too few of them.
You dont' need a navy to harm someone. Also I was talking about how you said the Sona could do it but its impossible for anyone else to do it.
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Post by Blackstar the Chakat »

The Ba'ku have no industry whatsoever. They're not just pre-warp, they're pre-industrial, and with a population of just 600 they have no means of building up any industrial base. How the Son'a got their ships is anyone's guess, but there's no way the Ba'ku would be able to recreate such a feat.
They rejected technology after it almost destroyed them. They knew what a positronic brain was for crying out loud. They even looked into repairing it. This suggests that they keep their technology hidden, but that they still have it somewhere. That's why the prime directive no longer applied.
Funny, similar things were said about ever other forced relocation. We're not killing them with guns, we're killing them slowly. What if these people suffer from territorial attachment syndrome? What if they can't adapt to the new planet?
Evidence for any of this?
American Indians? Seriously, open a history book.


Why couldn't the federation research the Son'a technology, find a way to use the benefits of the rings without removing the Ba'ku.
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ChakatBlackstar wrote:
The Ba'ku have no industry whatsoever. They're not just pre-warp, they're pre-industrial, and with a population of just 600 they have no means of building up any industrial base. How the Son'a got their ships is anyone's guess, but there's no way the Ba'ku would be able to recreate such a feat.
They rejected technology after it almost destroyed them. They knew what a positronic brain was for crying out loud. They even looked into repairing it. This suggests that they keep their technology hidden, but that they still have it somewhere. That's why the prime directive no longer applied.
Funny, similar things were said about ever other forced relocation. We're not killing them with guns, we're killing them slowly. What if these people suffer from territorial attachment syndrome? What if they can't adapt to the new planet?
Evidence for any of this?
American Indians? Seriously, open a history book.


Why couldn't the federation research the Son'a technology, find a way to use the benefits of the rings without removing the Ba'ku.
All of these are fine points other then the last which was already covered. Starfleet has no way of adapting the sona tech to do so. Which means for use the UFP would have to either transport anyone in need or remove the baku and go with the plan to sap the rings.
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Post by Deepcrush »

"Second War of Independence"?

Invading someone else's country is a "war of Independence"?
No, when England annouced plans to regain control over the colonies it became the Second War of Independence. Its a loose term and could also be thought of as just part of the 1812 war. It wasn't known as the War of 1812 for sometime later until the need to organize history became more important then national opinion. Also because the US started a war with Canada which England controled there by also making both sides guilty of invasion.
Last edited by Deepcrush on Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Blackstar the Chakat »

Also, it appears that in your mind (sorry, head, "mind" might be stretching the definition somewhat) that prioritising the vast benefits that the majority would gain from the ring harvesting over the preference of a small bunch of selfish luddites squatters for one planet over another is "greed".
But from the sounds of it, they can only harvest so much of the 'radiation'. If they can't replicate it then A) the benefits will only last so long, and B) even if they can continue to havest the radiation then the Son'a will become very powerful with power to influence the entire Federation
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:Because you have been speaking about it as a moral right. Which it is not.
How do you define what is "right" though? There is no inherent moral wrong in relocating a population. In the case of the Ba'ku they would have lost the planet in the Briar Patch, but gained another one when they were transplanted. Net loss: nothing.

While the loss was nonexistent, the gain was huge - the billions of Federation citizens that would have benefited from the medical revolution brought about by the harvesting. Look at Geordi's eyes - imagine if blindness could be made a thing of the past. That's just one - Dougherty's statement suggested that that's just a small taste of what could be achieved.

Whenever the objective good done by an action outweighs the harm done, that action holds a claim to be morally right. When the good outweighs the harm by such a vast degree as demonstrated above, it's claim becomes vastly stronger. I fail to understand why you do not understand this.
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