Size of the Dominion

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:04 pm

Hmm...seems reasonable.
I can't find anything wrong with that logic anyway.

Post by **Teaos** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:11 pm

I understand your logic but not history.

It is pretty same to assume that the Borg have been around a long time. Since we know of no power that can stand up to any more than a few cubes in seems impossible that they don't own the whole galaxy by now.

I read your idea about how they didn't have warp for ages but that can only account for some of the time. They have been as powerful as they are now for at least a couple hundred years. Looking at the huge chunk of the galaxy they own now I don't see how they wont own the whole galaxy in a few hundred years. In which case it is very lucky of us to be around just as they are about to take over everything.

The Borg should control the whole galaxy by 2500 unless something big comes along (8472 come back)

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:29 pm

I have a theory about the Borg...

We know that they are not great innovators or inventors. They assimilate what they need from others. But if they assimilate the whole galaxy, then there's nobody left to invent new stuff. The borg would be stuck at the same technology level forever.

So instead, they are like farmers... they have their own big block of territory, and they go out and "harvest" the rest of the galaxy periodically.

This could even explain why they only send one cube at a time to the Federation; they want the Federation to fight so they can adapt to their weapons. When the Federation come up with some new weapon or gimmick you lose a cube, but who cares when you have a million? You just send another one to adapt to that gimmick... and then another. And another. Eventually the Federation runs out of technological fixes and gimmicks for you to adapt to, and that's when you send a hundred cubes and harvest most of the population as drones.

At which time you pull back, leave them to recover for a few thousand years... and repeat.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:39 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:I have a theory about the Borg...

We know that they are not great innovators or inventors. They assimilate what they need from others. But if they assimilate the whole galaxy, then there's nobody left to invent new stuff. The borg would be stuck at the same technology level forever.

So instead, they are like farmers... they have their own big block of territory, and they go out and "harvest" the rest of the galaxy periodically.

This could even explain why they only send one cube at a time to the Federation; they want the Federation to fight so they can adapt to their weapons. When the Federation come up with some new weapon or gimmick you lose a cube, but who cares when you have a million? You just send another one to adapt to that gimmick... and then another. And another. Eventually the Federation runs out of technological fixes and gimmicks for you to adapt to, and that's when you send a hundred cubes and harvest most of the population as drones.

At which time you pull back, leave them to recover for a few thousand years... and repeat.

Diabolical and brilliant. I used to use a similar strategy when converting enemy units in Age of Empires.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:52 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:We know that they are not great innovators or inventors. They assimilate what they need from others. But if they assimilate the whole galaxy, then there's nobody left to invent new stuff. The borg would be stuck at the same technology level forever.

So instead, they are like farmers... they have their own big block of territory, and they go out and "harvest" the rest of the galaxy periodically.

The problem with this theory is that, while it make sense from the Borg point of view, and fits nicely with 99% of the canon, there's a fly in th ointment - First Contact.

If the Borg a deliberately allowing the Federation, and presumably the rest of their prey, to do their R&D for them why do they go into the past to assimilate Earth, wiping out three centuries of development and reducing Earth to a rather underpopulated and radiation-weakened source of bog-standard drones? The only way this would make sense iwould be if the Federation had developed to the stage where they were a threat to the Borg, and since the Fed fleet was not doing critical damge to the cube until Picard ordered them to concentrate their fire this is clearly not the case.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:54 pm

Yeah, have to try and think of a way around that!

Post by **Teaos** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:13 pm

This also goes against the fairly mindless idea of the collective.

You yourself said that the Borg are like a hurricane. It has no mind it goes were it goes. You either run out of its way, hide were it can't reach you or die.

Now with the Borg queen this is obviously not the case but I still think they have a similar mentality.

They really are like a ant collony. The lives of the individuals are not important only the hive.

Your idea while good gives them more credit than I think they diserve.

They know nothing apart from what they learn off others. How would they divise this tactic?

I have my own idea which I said somewhere in that mess of a TR-116 thread.

That they only react. You could be sitting a few light years from them and they would leave you alone unless provoked. Since most everyone knows not to piss the Borg off they spread rather fast at one stage but now everyone leaves them alone and they have become trapped in their own space.

The stray Borg cubes we see are following those who ran and then ambling around sometimes stumbling across something.

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:11 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:I have a theory about the Borg...

We know that they are not great innovators or inventors. They assimilate what they need from others. But if they assimilate the whole galaxy, then there's nobody left to invent new stuff. The borg would be stuck at the same technology level forever.

So instead, they are like farmers... they have their own big block of territory, and they go out and "harvest" the rest of the galaxy periodically.

This could even explain why they only send one cube at a time to the Federation; they want the Federation to fight so they can adapt to their weapons. When the Federation come up with some new weapon or gimmick you lose a cube, but who cares when you have a million? You just send another one to adapt to that gimmick... and then another. And another. Eventually the Federation runs out of technological fixes and gimmicks for you to adapt to, and that's when you send a hundred cubes and harvest most of the population as drones.

At which time you pull back, leave them to recover for a few thousand years... and repeat.

I don't know. I really like this theory. It would explain how members of assimilated races (e.g. Guinan and company) usually seem to escape. Even a "mindless" ant colony can engage in agriculture! (leaf cutters actually eat the fungus that grows on rotting leaves which they have harvested).

Maybe that's what happened to some of the older generation of races

It could also explain why most of the Alpha Quadrant powers are all about the same age, give or take a thousand years.

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:22 pm

You know, I have a theory about the First Contact plot and how it can in fact fit into Graham's theory!

If the Federation had the POTENTIAL to someday be a threat (or lead other races to defeat the Borg en-masse), I could see how the Collective would figure that humans are more trouble than they're worth. BUT....

Notice that rather than destroying the Federation outright, they go back in time to prevent it from ever forming. But remember that the plan was that there would be one sphere (complete with Borg Queen) which retained the knowledge of the Federation in the 2370's. Time paradoxes aside, in Trek there is no reason that knowledge would go to waste. Their plan was really two-fold. Send the earlier Borg to assimilate/cut down Earth, and transmit the future knowledge to the Collective (or maybe hold onto it until the proper time, but whatever). In this case, the Borg not only get to prevent the Federation from ever threatening them but also get all the knowledge that humanity had amassed!

I think that that really supports the idea of Borg "farmers". Elaborating on this, maybe something very odd happens; I could see that the Borg might "rotate their crops" as it were:

1. The Borg are in the Delta Quadrant, and assimilate Earth in the 21st Century, using it as a foundation to conquer the Alpha/Beta Quadrant. they shift their operations there, but basically abandon the Delta Quadrant, re-setting that region for life, if you will.

2. They are now in the Alpha Quadrant, terrorizing the other two, leaving the Delta Quadrant alone to develop. Eventually, they find a new target world and repeat the process, moving to one of the other quadrants, and letting the Alpha Quadrant develop again.

Improbable, very. But given virtually limitless amounts of time and the collected knowledge of the entire galaxy, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. It also makes sense to leave a portion of the galaxy alone for an extended period, so that new races develop that DO NOT know about the Borg, and the possibility for truly original (and therefore more desirable) ideas increases.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:23 am

All these ideas could work and seem to fix canon problems but they just dont sit well with me.

I don't see why the Borg wouldn't just take over the whole Galaxy then sit there twiddling their thumbs. They don't seem the type to get bored.

Also the Borg are patient. I can see them sending a fleet of cubes to the next Galaxy. Might take a few thousend years but I doubt they would care.

SolkaTruesilver · Post by **SolkaTruesilver** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:52 am

(hey, my first post!)

Most of you said that there would be no reason for the Borg to try to assimilate the Dominion. However, I do not remember the Borg being able to produce via cloning techniques new infants.

The Dominion, on the other hand, is a master of cloning technologies. Imagine: thousands of Borgified Jem'Hadar

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:33 pm

Borg with Jem'hadar cloning tech would not be nice to see.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:56 pm

I think it is safe to assume the Borg can clone. Hell we can clone so they should be able to.

I think its just easier for them to just assimilate adults.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:06 pm

True, and they have no problems when it comes to numbers.

Black Jesus · Post by **Black Jesus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:43 pm

Going back to the original post of the size of the Dominion, Ronald Moore had this to say about it:

"The Dominion does not own the entire Gamma Quadrant. We [the Federation] had explored the Gamma Quadrant for two years before encountering the Dominion, so it's not as though the wormhole opens up in their living room. There are other races in the Gamma Quadrant that are not part of the Dominion and the Ferengi at least have established trade with some of them.

When the Dominion told us to stay out of the Gamma Quadrant, it was as if China told the U.S. to stay out of the Yellow Sea. China is the big boy in this neck of the woods, and you better take their warning seriously, but at the same time we have trading partners and allies there and hey, freedom of the seas and all that."