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Cpl Kendall wrote:

Mark wrote:

They already HAD him doing a job they should have had at least a full lieutenant doing. After all, the Operations Officer is quite important. Hell, Data had the exact same job on the E-D, and he was the ships 3rd in command.

And what? Promoting the guy is just a band-aid solution to the problem that there isn't anything else for the guy to do. What other responsibilities is the guy going to get? What prospects are there for him?

The answer of course is nothing. The guy hasn't a hope in hell of advancing unless they get home or through attrition. That's the result of being stuck 70 years from home and none of the senior officers dying.

The point I'm making here is that as a raw Ensign straight out of the Academy on his first assignment, I can't see any sense whatsoever in making him the Chief Operations Officer. The job by definition is one for a senior officer (as demonstrated by all briefings referring to "Senior Staff" or whatnot). The Ops position is a compilation of science, communications, engineering, and other misc bridge duties PLUS being responsible for the management of ships systems and resources. Again, on the E-D they had the ships 3rd in command in that position, yet have a raw Ensign serving that position. I see no problem at all with promoting him TO a senior officer while he's serving AS a senior officer.

Mark wrote:The Ops position is a compilation of science, communications, engineering, and other misc bridge duties PLUS being responsible for the management of ships systems and resources.

The Ops position is supposed to be the management of systems and resources, and not all the other stuff - that's why there's an engineering dept., science, dept., etc. As to the fact of an ensign running it - I see your point, but I don't think that ther is anything which demands that a senior staff or dept. head position requires a particular rank.

Well part of the problem is that if he's going to be managing those things he needs to be able to give orders out. He's an ensign, about as low in the command chain as you can be without hitting the enlisted ranks.

Tyyr wrote:Well part of the problem is that if he's going to be managing those things he needs to be able to give orders out. He's an ensign, about as low in the command chain as you can be without hitting the enlisted ranks.

If he's dept. head, he can issue orders relating to the management of his department to almost anyone.

Mikey wrote:

Mark wrote:The Ops position is a compilation of science, communications, engineering, and other misc bridge duties PLUS being responsible for the management of ships systems and resources.

The Ops position is supposed to be the management of systems and resources, and not all the other stuff - that's why there's an engineering dept., science, dept., etc. As to the fact of an ensign running it - I see your point, but I don't think that ther is anything which demands that a senior staff or dept. head position requires a particular rank.

That being the case, then why do we have the E-Ds 2nd officer in that position? Seems that Data could have been better used elsewhere and have a junior officer fill the Ops position, as they did the Conn.

#1 - I didn't say it was SOP. Voyager was certainly in a unique situation.

#2 - I think Data being 3iC was coincidental to him being the ops dept. head.

Mikey wrote:If he's dept. head, he can issue orders relating to the management of his department to almost anyone.

Why? If he's outranked then he can either a) ask nicely and hope the senior officer isn't in a contrary mood or b) pass on the orders of someone who outranks whoever he's talking to. He can't order people around who outrank him simply by virtue of his post.

The only real explaination I can think of would be that Harry is the only officer in all of Operations. But that sounds a bit unlikely.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Mikey wrote:If he's dept. head, he can issue orders relating to the management of his department to almost anyone.

Why? If he's outranked then he can either a) ask nicely and hope the senior officer isn't in a contrary mood or b) pass on the orders of someone who outranks whoever he's talking to. He can't order people around who outrank him simply by virtue of his post.

He has the position but not the rank. If you're outranked by a department head then you're outranked by a department head regardless of their rank. At least that's probably how starfleet operates. The signature block on the orders is still "Head of Operations" regardless of whether or not it's Ens, Lt. Lt Cmdr or Dr Harry Kim, he still has the position. Otherwise, Chief O'Brian on DS9 would have no authority either and yet he did (he was chief of engineering on the defiant and the equivalent on the station no?)

Captain Seafort wrote:

Mikey wrote:If he's dept. head, he can issue orders relating to the management of his department to almost anyone.

Why? If he's outranked then he can either a) ask nicely and hope the senior officer isn't in a contrary mood or b) pass on the orders of someone who outranks whoever he's talking to. He can't order people around who outrank him simply by virtue of his post.

He has the position but not the rank. If you're outranked by a department head then you're outranked by a department head regardless of their rank. At least that's probably how starfleet operates. The signature block on the orders is still "Head of Operations" regardless of whether or not it's Ens, Lt. Lt Cmdr or Dr Harry Kim, he still has the position. Otherwise, Chief O'Brian on DS9 would have no authority either and yet he did (he was chief of engineering on the defiant and the equivalent on the station no?)

Sonic Glitch wrote:He has the position but not the rank. If you're outranked by a department head then you're outranked by a department head regardless of their rank.

What exactly do you think "outranked" means?

At least that's probably how starfleet operates. The signature block on the orders is still "Head of Operations" regardless of whether or not it's Ens, Lt. Lt Cmdr or Dr Harry Kim, he still has the position.

Correct. And how many times have we seen ships' COs overruled by higher-ranking officers, despite not being in their direct chain of command? Decker for example.

Otherwise, Chief O'Brian on DS9 would have no authority either and yet he did (he was chief of engineering on the defiant and the equivalent on the station no?)

The statement that people can't order around people who outrank them is not refuted by the example of someone ordering people he outranks.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Sonic Glitch wrote:He has the position but not the rank. If you're outranked by a department head then you're outranked by a department head regardless of their rank.

What exactly do you think "outranked" means?

Quick random question: Are we discussing whether or not Kim could give orders to people who outranked him in the department (ie, if there was a Lt in the ops department) or whether he had the authority to issue orders at all?
And I'm saying while there is a hierarchy of rank (w/ ensign at the bottom) at least in Starfleet there is also a hierarchy of position with Department Head > Members of the Department

At least that's probably how starfleet operates. The signature block on the orders is still "Head of Operations" regardless of whether or not it's Ens, Lt. Lt Cmdr or Dr Harry Kim, he still has the position.

Correct. And how many times have we seen ships' COs overruled by higher-ranking officers, despite not being in their direct chain of command? Decker for example.
[/quote]
Kirk was Chief of Operations, at the top of almost everyone's chain of command it would seem.

Otherwise, Chief O'Brian on DS9 would have no authority either and yet he did (he was chief of engineering on the defiant and the equivalent on the station no?)

The statement that people can't order around people who outrank them is not refuted by the example of someone ordering people he outranks.[/quote]

What?

Sonic Glitch wrote:Quick random question: Are we discussing whether or not Kim could give orders to people who outranked him in the department (ie, if there was a Lt in the ops department) or whether he had the authority to issue orders at all?

We're discussing whether or not Kim could issue orders to people who outranked him at all - this wouldn't arise with Kim's own department - if there was a Lieutenant within Ops then he or she would be Ops Officer, not Kim.

And I'm saying while there is a hierarchy of rank (w/ ensign at the bottom) at least in Starfleet there is also a hierarchy of position with Department Head > Members of the Department

I think you've got the situation slightly confused. The head of the department holds that position by being the highest-ranking individual within the department.

Correct. And how many times have we seen ships' COs overruled by higher-ranking officers, despite not being in their direct chain of command? Decker for example.

Kirk was Chief of Operations, at the top of almost everyone's chain of command it would seem.

I'm talking about Matt Decker commandeering the Enterprise, not Will being shunted down to XO.

What?

I'd have thought the statement would be obvious - you stated that an individual's rank is irrelevant to their post, and claimed that if that were not the case O'Brien wouldn't have been Chief of Operations for DS9. I'm pointing out that the reason O'Brien held that position was because he outranked everyone else in that department.

I call shenanigans. O'Brien was an enlisted man.

Mikey wrote:I call shenanigans. O'Brien was an enlisted man.

So was the rest of the engineering staff.