What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

[Mikey]

Especially considering the much-reduced crew and amenities.

I think Atekimogus' illustration was valid - he didn't say, "These blueprints are non-canon, but we must accepted them;" rather, he used them as an illustration that there was a feasible way to keep the same architecture and make a viable ship out of it.

[Aaron]

That's a pretty kick arse blueprint Atekimogus found, where's that from?

I don't have a problem with the FJ designs, the tech in TOS was no where near as fleshed out as it became in the TNG era so there is a lot of room for interpretation there. And reusing hulls is common enough in RL that it isn't a stretch in the future, it even provides a decent answer as to why the Klingons and Cardies only have a few ship designs; their just reusing hull forms.

[Deepcrush]

Okay, this was simple enough that I'm not sure why this seemed to slip past people so easily. I didn't say "stick only to cannon ships". I said to stick to canon information to base your ideas off of. If this is too hard for people then oh well, not my problem. I was just trying to be nice for once.

[SomosFuga]

We have a ship from 23rd century besides the Constitution Class: The Kelvin. It's pre TOS but still 23rd century and part of the main time line.
We also have the Soyuz, we saw it in TNG but it's suppose to be 23rd century desing AFAIK. And the Oberth. Those are post TOS era of course.

I'm not a fan of FJ designs but are not without sense.
For the nacelle discussion i think the Kelvin is a good candidate to have all the warp drive contained within the nacelle because this one is quite huge. That would leave most of the upper hull for hangar and cargo areas.

[Mikey]

Okay, this was simple enough that I'm not sure why this seemed to slip past people so easily. I didn't say "stick only to cannon ships". I said to stick to canon information to base your ideas off of. If this is too hard for people then oh well, not my problem. I was just trying to be nice for once.

Here's what slipped past: Atekimogus didn't try to pass off the non-canon info as canon. He merely used that as an example that there is room for interpretation, and it is certainly plausible that the single-nacelled Joseph design is viable.

[Tyyr]

How can you know that? I cannot remember TOS showing us some of the equipment you describe like a huge warp core for instance, I therefore have no problem accepting that the TMP design of a huge warp core running almost through the whole ship is indeed a new design philosophy, one which justifies the massive refit we see.

We've seen warp cores and nacelles both pre TOS and post TOS. In both cases the warp cores were large structures housed in the secondary hulls. In both cases we've seen nacelles as relatively hollow structures that house the warp coils and not much else. What I'm proposing is consistent with what we've seen before of starship warp drive systems. You're postulating that for some reason between Ent and TMP Starfleet radically changed the way they handled the warp drive systems of their starships, then changed back to it all with little to no outward difference in the basic design of their ships.

I realize that XI doesn't gel with the standard timeline but in XI we see them eject the warp core(s) not from the nacelles but from the secondary hull.

All evidence points to the warp cores of starfleet ships being housed in the secondary hulls, not the nacelles. This is consistent across everything we see of them.

Why not? When push comes to shove in all honesty all ships are powered by magic since it is fiction and I have no problem whatsoever believing that at this time the m/am reactor was of much smaller scale and the largest component of the warp drive system were the engines.

The problem is that we have seen all these components and there's not one instance I can recall of things being arranged the way you can describe. Star Trek is for once relatively consistent about something.

The NX-01 warp core was really small for example

And so is the NX-01. Proportionally the warp core is not all that small. I also feel like pointing out that just like every other ship we've seen, it's not in the nacelles.

and there is no need to speculate about a huge core running through multiple decks like the one seen in the TMP connie when we never saw one or heard about one in the TOS connie.

Yet you feel free to speculate that it didn't exist until then?

Here follows a list of cut and paste parts of the connie. The saucer is the exactly the same, they just bolted a bit of space to it in the aft section. The nacelles are exactly the same. The torpedo tubes are the same altough bolted to a rollbar.
I like the miranda because it is also a sensible kitbash. But still it is a kitbash of connie-parts with the only difference the aft section and the rollbar and therefore I don't understand why you have such a problem with the FJ designs which aren't any better or worse.

Because the Miranda isn't a pure cut and paste. Someone with a little sense realized that things like the Saladin are just fucking stupid. The majorly modified the entire aft 1/3 of saucer and incorporated a major redesign of the aft to handle all the systems that were in the secondary hull but now needed a home in the primary.

But we are discussing the feasability of the non-canon ships in the canon universe. Why shouldn't we then use their non-canon blueprints?

Because the non-canon blueprints differ radically with what appears to be standard Starfleet design rules?

So according to logic I should stick to canon when discussing ships which are arguable non-canon?

You should stick to the general rules of canon when it comes to ship design.

[stitch626]

Someone with a little sense realized that things like the Saladin are just f***ing stupid.

Ah no. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the canon super sized BoP.
It is plenty reasonable as a design, as are the other FJ concepts.

Because the non-canon blueprints differ radically with what appears to be standard Starfleet design rules?

Ok, I guess thats fair.

[Tyyr]

It is plenty reasonable as a design, as are the other FJ concepts.

I have no problem with the concept of a smaller destroyer sized ship with a lot of design similarities to the Connie. I have a big problem with stupid ass cut and pastes.

[stitch626]

Its not a cut and paste... see that sensor dish hanging down.

Anyway, the Saladin is only one of many FJ designs, and most of them are not simple cut and pastes. And nothign precludes this particular cut and paste from working, engineering wise.

[Vic]

It seems to me that there were a couple of times that Scotty was showing off his (TOS) domain and talking about the warp system while looking through that big assed screen in engineering. There were alot of blocky shapes with vague lighting there, and the boxy protuberance in the middle of engineering was mentioned in the Nomad(?) Daystroms M5(?) episode as well.

[Mark]

Connie and Miranda followed by the Excelsior. The only cannon ships there for all I care about. IMO.

That made me think. It's commonly assumed the Miranda class was a contemporary of the un-refit Connie. What about the Oberth? Couldn't that small ship ALSO be an upgraded refit of TOS era as well? There is as much evidence to support that as there is that the Miranda was a refitted ship design.

[Deepcrush]

Oberth, I had forgotten about that one...

[Mark]

It not a secret that is my LEAST favorite ship, although I admit she looks cool from the outside. What's your take Deep? Think the Oberth could have been a refit like the Connie, and like the Miranda is SUPPOSED to be?

[Sionnach Glic]

From where do people get the idea that the Miranda from WoK is refitted?

[Deepcrush]

There are some published pics of a TOS Connie style Miranda. Nothing canon though.