Let's Fix The Galaxy Class Starship

[Sionnach Glic]

Somewhere aft, IIRC.

[Nickswitz]

That's what I thought, Maybe they completely lost those sensors in a battle, wait, that would be episode to episode continuity, and that doesn't go well with Trek writers.

[Captain Seafort]

The impression given by the episode was that the sensor/shield blind spot was due to the engines, either the point where the impulse stream passed through the shields, or where the subspace fields from the nacelles intersected.

[Nickswitz]

I think the impulse engine stream would make more sense, because the warp field intersection is a couple meters at most.

[Praeothmin]

It was probably a shield blind spot, because they seemed to know exactly where Ro was with the shuttle at all times, and they decided to let her do what she wanted.

[Nickswitz]

That really wouldn't surprise me.

[katefan]

That leaves the fleet in a very poor position if it goes to war. Where are your heavy warship? Supply ships? Patrol and Escort and Training ships? Your list fails to meet the basic needs of any ST fleet.

But according to DS9 you don't need heavy warships if you have enough Defiants. And since you love the Excelsior so much doesn't my idea bring your favorite ship to prominence.

[Deepcrush]

But according to DS9 you don't need heavy warships if you have enough Defiants.

I don't think I've ever said such a thing. The Defiants are nice and great for numbers but they can't replace a true heavy warship.

And since you love the Excelsior so much doesn't my idea bring your favorite ship to prominence.

No matter how much I love the Excelsior, its days are coming to a close. The Lakota upgrade is great but she'll never be more then a light cruiser from here on out. She's not a heavy warship like the Akira, Prommy, GCS, Neb or Sov.

[katefan]

But according to DS9 you don't need heavy warships if you have enough Defiants.

I don't think I've ever said such a thing. The Defiants are nice and great for numbers but they can't replace a true heavy warship.

And I never said you said that. I said according to DS9.

And since you love the Excelsior so much doesn't my idea bring your favorite ship to prominence.

No matter how much I love the Excelsior, its days are coming to a close. The Lakota upgrade is great but she'll never be more then a light cruiser from here on out. She's not a heavy warship like the Akira, Prommy, GCS, Neb or Sov.[/quote]

But as a support vessels she is ideal, supplying more able ships in the field.

[Mikey]

And I never said you said that. I said according to DS9.

Can you reference the ep in which that was said? There were only three Defiant-classes shown, IIRC; and if it were true, the upgraded GCS' would never have been built, nor the Sov, which is a DS9-era design.

But as a support vessels she is ideal, supplying more able ships in the field.

True. That in no way preculdes the need for replacements in the cruiser and battlecruiser categories.

[katefan]

And I never said you said that. I said according to DS9.

Can you reference the ep in which that was said? There were only three Defiant-classes shown, IIRC; and if it were true, the upgraded GCS' would never have been built, nor the Sov, which is a DS9-era design.

It was never said specifically, but if you watch the series it is a tiny death machine that could cut through anything. It was ridiculous just how powerful it was for it's size when up to DS9 bigger ships meant more powerful ships.

But as a support vessels she is ideal, supplying more able ships in the field.

True. That in no way preculdes the need for replacements in the cruiser and battlecruiser categories.[/quote]

Then you can create ships of comparable size with small crews of 200 or so. 60 for a Defiant, 200 for a support ship, 180 for a scout vessel and you have less than half the crew of a Galaxy class at a fraction of the tonnage.

[Captain Seafort]

It was never said specifically, but if you watch the series it is a tiny death machine that could cut through anything. It was ridiculous just how powerful it was for it's size when up to DS9 bigger ships meant more powerful ships.

Nontheless, the Defiant had her weaknesses - she was short ranged and slow by the standards of other ships. Moreover, Starfleet continued to deploy other ships in far greater numbers, and did not deploy the huge swarms of Defiants you would expect if they were capable of replacing the other warships. Why this is is unknown - it could be that the Defiants aren't as effective in fleet actions as they appear, it could be that they're difficult to produce in large numbers, it could be that they're too expensive to produce in large numbers, but the fact remains that Starfleet continued to deploy other classes to ship to form the bulk of the fleet throughout the war, and displayed no sign of a programme of replacing them with Defiants.

[katefan]

It was never said specifically, but if you watch the series it is a tiny death machine that could cut through anything. It was ridiculous just how powerful it was for it's size when up to DS9 bigger ships meant more powerful ships.

Nontheless, the Defiant had her weaknesses - she was short ranged and slow by the standards of other ships. Moreover, Starfleet continued to deploy other ships in far greater numbers, and did not deploy the huge swarms of Defiants you would expect if they were capable of replacing the other warships. Why this is is unknown - it could be that the Defiants aren't as effective in fleet actions as they appear, it could be that they're difficult to produce in large numbers, it could be that they're too expensive to produce in large numbers, but the fact remains that Starfleet continued to deploy other classes to ship to form the bulk of the fleet throughout the war, and displayed no sign of a programme of replacing them with Defiants.

The Defiant's deficiencies can be overcome by pairing her up with other ships. Her short range is due to her inability to store consumables. Hence the support craft. Her slow speed is compensated for by the quicker scout vessel.

As for why there were not more, the answer could simply be admirals unwilling to accept the awesomeness that was the Defiant class. It would not be the first time military brass had their heads stuck up their butts and continued making poor decisions; during the sixties some idiot generals thought dog fighting was a thing of the past, so the F4 Phantom was designed without a cannon. The Hummer was designed without proper armor to resist land mines.

In any event, it is quite possible that keels were not laid down for Defiants until much later, after exhaustive field testing by Sisko and company confirmed the viability of the class. Such tests can take years and it was not 'til the latter half of the Dominion war that we start to see more Defiants.

[Mikey]

It was never said specifically, but if you watch the series it is a tiny death machine that could cut through anything. It was ridiculous just how powerful it was for it's size when up to DS9 bigger ships meant more powerful ships.

However, as Seafort ably pointed out, there are parts of that design which disallow certain abilities. Her small size and crew complement, combined in part with how over-powered she is, mean she is unsuited for missions requiring her to stay on-station for extended periods; patrol, deep strikes, etc. In addition, her speed relative to other SOTA ships mean she is also unsuited to raids and quick-response missions. As I said, and hasn't been addressed, there must be a reason why other warships are being developed and produced concurrently with the Defiant.

Then you can create ships of comparable size with small crews of 200 or so. 60 for a Defiant, 200 for a support ship, 180 for a scout vessel and you have less than half the crew of a Galaxy class at a fraction of the tonnage.

Again, by limiting the size and complement of those vessels you are limiting the roles for which they are suited.

The Defiant's deficiencies can be overcome by pairing her up with other ships. Her short range is due to her inability to store consumables. Hence the support craft. Her slow speed is compensated for by the quicker scout vessel.

So, you are acceding to the need for other types of vessels. Even simpler, have those other vessels fulfill the missions for which they are suited and the Defiant isn't, instead of tying them to the Defiant which isn't really appropriate. Your solution is to send the Defiant AND another ship, instead of just sending the other ship. Even aside from the logisitical lack of common sense of that idea, now you're limiting the mission to the slower speed of the Defiant.

As for why there were not more, the answer could simply be admirals unwilling to accept the awesomeness that was the Defiant class. It would not be the first time military brass had their heads stuck up their butts and continued making poor decisions; during the sixties some idiot generals thought dog fighting was a thing of the past, so the F4 Phantom was designed without a cannon. The Hummer was designed without proper armor to resist land mines.

I don't buy it. Brass has a long and storied history of going apeshit for the latest tech, especially if it blows shit up as well as the Defiant does. There is no reason to suspect that Starfleet admiralty would be reluctant to accept a ship that is so good at what it does as the Defiant-class. The Hummer and F-4 are examples of this, not against it.

In any event, it is quite possible that keels were not laid down for Defiants until much later, after exhaustive field testing by Sisko and company confirmed the viability of the class. Such tests can take years and it was not 'til the latter half of the Dominion war that we start to see more Defiants.

This makes a little more sense, but we do in fact see at least the Valiant and the Sao Paolo. And even production took a while to ramp up, the fact remains that other warships were in production concurrently with the Defiant. This means (here we go...) that there were wartime roles for which the Defiant was suited, and roles for which it wasn't! The Defiant was listed as an "escort," and it is a perfect destroyer. It is a poor cruiser, tender, battleship, tug, or anything else.

[katefan]

It was never said specifically, but if you watch the series it is a tiny death machine that could cut through anything. It was ridiculous just how powerful it was for it's size when up to DS9 bigger ships meant more powerful ships.

However, as Seafort ably pointed out, there are parts of that design which disallow certain abilities. Her small size and crew complement, combined in part with how over-powered she is, mean she is unsuited for missions requiring her to stay on-station for extended periods; patrol, deep strikes, etc. In addition, her speed relative to other SOTA ships mean she is also unsuited to raids and quick-response missions. As I said, and hasn't been addressed, there must be a reason why other warships are being developed and produced concurrently with the Defiant.

And like I said, with a support vessel you can fix this. A support vessel would allow crew turnover, crew recreation, and resupply of equipment. Enhanced replicators would allow replacement of parts, much like we saw Voyager do on repeated occasions.

Then you can create ships of comparable size with small crews of 200 or so. 60 for a Defiant, 200 for a support ship, 180 for a scout vessel and you have less than half the crew of a Galaxy class at a fraction of the tonnage.

Again, by limiting the size and complement of those vessels you are limiting the roles for which they are suited.

And again, by creating a support vessel you are eliminating these problems. A Norway class cruiser, for example, or a Steamrunner would both suit the role perfectly if you were looking for later era ships than the Excelsior.

The Defiant's deficiencies can be overcome by pairing her up with other ships. Her short range is due to her inability to store consumables. Hence the support craft. Her slow speed is compensated for by the quicker scout vessel.

So, you are acceding to the need for other types of vessels.

And I never said otherwise. As I said above (and I really wish people would read what I write, which would eliminate the need for me to repeat myself) the Defiant would be part of a team of vessels, each one providing a different function.

Even simpler, have those other vessels fulfill the missions for which they are suited and the Defiant isn't, instead of tying them to the Defiant which isn't really appropriate.

But my entire point here-which I think you and everyone else is missing-is the Defiant, Intrepid and support vessel combined have a crew of half that of a Galaxy class at a fraction of the tonnage.

Your solution is to send the Defiant AND another ship, instead of just sending the other ship. Even aside from the logisitical lack of common sense of that idea, now you're limiting the mission to the slower speed of the Defiant.

In some cases, yes. I do not deny my solution may have flaws. However, in the case of a humanitarian aid, for example, a faster ship like the Intrepid could easily provide it while her sisters ships caught up. But in terms of combat my idea would be especially ideal as it seems a tri-angled attack proposed by the new Prometheus class supports the theory that three ships are more effective than one in an attack.

In terms of sheer tonnage and personnel I fail to see how my solution lacks logistical sense.

As for why there were not more, the answer could simply be admirals unwilling to accept the awesomeness that was the Defiant class. It would not be the first time military brass had their heads stuck up their butts and continued making poor decisions; during the sixties some idiot generals thought dog fighting was a thing of the past, so the F4 Phantom was designed without a cannon. The Hummer was designed without proper armor to resist land mines.

I don't buy it. Brass has a long and storied history of going apeshit for the latest tech, especially if it blows s**t up as well as the Defiant does. There is no reason to suspect that Starfleet admiralty would be reluctant to accept a ship that is so good at what it does as the Defiant-class. The Hummer and F-4 are examples of this, not against it.

It would if it flies in the face of older doctrine. You have a point where the Hummer and F-4 are concerned, I grant you. In both cases, however, the brass was wrong. Perhaps Starfleet brass is more conservative than the modern United States military.

In any event, it is quite possible that keels were not laid down for Defiants until much later, after exhaustive field testing by Sisko and company confirmed the viability of the class. Such tests can take years and it was not 'til the latter half of the Dominion war that we start to see more Defiants.

This makes a little more sense, but we do in fact see at least the Valiant and the Sao Paolo. And even production took a while to ramp up, the fact remains that other warships were in production concurrently with the Defiant. This means (here we go...) that there were wartime roles for which the Defiant was suited, and roles for which it wasn't! The Defiant was listed as an "escort," and it is a perfect destroyer. It is a poor cruiser, tender, battleship, tug, or anything else.

You said it yourself, it takes a while for production to ramp up. And if the Defiant does not have any real fans higher up then you aren't going to see dry docks dedictated towards building Galaxy and Akiras given over to Defiants.

And you just called the Defiant an escort, the perfect ship to escort two other vessels; a support craft and scout ship. There, thank you for supporting my argument. I appreciate it.