TOS Remastered: Disappointment in the Special Effects?

[stitch626]

Well, it isn't the core that actually explodes (i was being simplistic before), it is the reaction between the matter and antimatter (not sure about the RL physics of this... never have seen a M/AM reactor).
As for why it explodes, it is usually related to antimatter containment failure, which could plague any Star Trek ship that used an M/AM reactor. The antimatter mixes with the matter of the ship and boom.

[Sionnach Glic]

It's clealry possible to put effective safety systems into use. Not one ship during the TOS era suffered a warp core breach. Clearly the problem is that in the TNG era the safety systems were sacraficed for some reason. Perhaps for ease of construction.

[stitch626]

While rediculously stupid to do, it does sound like something done by Starfleet.

[Sonic Glitch]

It's clealry possible to put effective safety systems into use. Not one ship during the TOS era suffered a warp core breach. Clearly the problem is that in the TNG era the safety systems were sacraficed for some reason. Perhaps for ease of construction.

or for purposes of drama...

[Graham Kennedy]

I think it's nonsense to suggest that TNG ship designs are deliberately built to be inherently unsafe. This whole theory that Starfleet ship designers must be genuinely stupid is fine as light relief, but seriously it's a reducto ad absurdum for me. It's dramatic license, people!

But if you so badly want an in universe explanation, there's no reason we can't suppose that TOS was set at a time when damage control and limitation technology was ahead of weapons technology, but that in TNG the weapons had advanced that much faster than defences. For all we know a single brief phaser burst by a GCS would blow a Connie warp core straight to hell, taking the rest of the ship with it. While a connie might fire all day long at a GCS and do bugger all. Hell, when a merely 20 year old BoP took on an effectively unshielded Enterprise-D it took something like fifteen or twenty disruptor and/or torpedo hits to inflict fatal damage. That alone should tell you that a TNG era ship would be all but invulnerable to anything in TOS even with shields down.

[Teaos]

By using the non-explosive one used during the TOS era.

M/AM cores are the single most efficent form of power generation possible with known science. Sure the GCS warp core was shit but almost all other ones seem pretty stable, certainly as stable as most other ones.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I still love seeing fires in space.............makes no sense at all, but looks quite cool 8)

Neither does sound, but I vastly prefer it to silence.

[Captain Seafort]

But if you so badly want an in universe explanation, there's no reason we can't suppose that TOS was set at a time when damage control and limitation technology was ahead of weapons technology, but that in TNG the weapons had advanced that much faster than defences. For all we know a single brief phaser burst by a GCS would blow a Connie warp core straight to hell, taking the rest of the ship with it. While a connie might fire all day long at a GCS and do bugger all. Hell, when a merely 20 year old BoP took on an effectively unshielded Enterprise-D it took something like fifteen or twenty disruptor and/or torpedo hits to inflict fatal damage. That alone should tell you that a TNG era ship would be all but invulnerable to anything in TOS even with shields down.

It isn't simply a matter of weapons fire triggering a core breach, but of how that happens. If it had simply been a case of phaser or torpedo fire punching a hole through the antimatter pods and spilling the fuel supply into the ship there wouldn't be a problem. The problem is the lack of any failsafe to eject the core if it's damaged. Have a look at a few of the GCS losses we've seen:

1) Yamato. Quite apart from the computer security issues, the ship was destroyed when the computer symultaneously blocked the antimatter venting system and dropped the containment. For starters the emergency venting shouldn't be an active system in the first place, and secondly it shouldn't be possible to trigger a falilure mode without also triggering the venting. In a well-designed ship the Yamato's loss would not have happened.

2) E-D "Cause and Effect". A slight tap on the nacelle caused a loss of core pressure, and the ship went boom. They couldn't shut down the core and core ejection was off-line. More evidence of active systems, that go off line if they lose power. That's about as stupid as you can get.

3) E-D "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Generations". Both caused by coolant leaks. Where's the backup cooling system? And once more, they were unable to eject the core on either occasion.

The fundamental problem with all these examples isn't that battle damage caused the core or antimatter pods to explode - it's that they were unable to get rid of the damn thing despite having several minutes available to do so.

[Graham Kennedy]

Have a look at a few of the GCS losses we've seen:

1) Yamato. Quite apart from the computer security issues, the ship was destroyed when the computer symultaneously blocked the antimatter venting system and dropped the containment. For starters the emergency venting shouldn't be an active system in the first place, and secondly it shouldn't be possible to trigger a falilure mode without also triggering the venting. In a well-designed ship the Yamato's loss would not have happened.

Systems like this have to be under computer control, and I don't believe there is any way to defend your computer systems against an alien system thousands of years in advance against your own. Unavoidable loss, in my mind.

2) E-D "Cause and Effect". A slight tap on the nacelle caused a loss of core pressure, and the ship went boom. They couldn't shut down the core and core ejection was off-line. More evidence of active systems, that go off line if they lose power. That's about as stupid as you can get.

At the time the ship was suffering from who knows what kind of systems failures from the anomaly, though.

3) E-D "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Generations". Both caused by coolant leaks. Where's the backup cooling system? And once more, they were unable to eject the core on either occasion.

Perhaps the backup coolant system was damaged by any one of the literally dozens of hits the ship took.

The fundamental problem with all these examples isn't that battle damage caused the core or antimatter pods to explode - it's that they were unable to get rid of the damn thing despite having several minutes available to do so.

Getting rid of antimatter pods and/or the warp core would be no small thing. It would be a complex process that would require computer control, powered systems, all kinds of stuff. I have no problem believing that a ship which has just taken a dozen torpedoes would not be able to do it any more.

[Captain Seafort]

Getting rid of antimatter pods and/or the warp core would be no small thing. It would be a complex process that would require computer control, powered systems, all kinds of stuff. I have no problem believing that a ship which has just taken a dozen torpedoes would not be able to do it any more.

No it wouldn't. Make the entire warp power assembly a plug within the ship, contining both the core and A/M pods. At the top of this plug pump the air pressure up as high as possible, with the plug held in place by electromagnets lnked in series to the power supply of the A/M pods. To protect against loss of this overpressure due to weapons fire this area should be heavilly armoured. If the pods' power supply fails, so will the electromagnets, and the overpressure will punch the core and A/M supply well clear of the ship. In the case of any non-pod related problem, the crew can pull the plug, with the same result.

[Graham Kennedy]

Getting rid of antimatter pods and/or the warp core would be no small thing. It would be a complex process that would require computer control, powered systems, all kinds of stuff. I have no problem believing that a ship which has just taken a dozen torpedoes would not be able to do it any more.

No it wouldn't. Make the entire warp power assembly a plug within the ship, contining both the core and A/M pods.

Which straight away means you can only eject the whole thing, losing you the ability to eject either the core or the pods independently of one another.

At the top of this plug pump the air pressure up as high as possible, with the plug held in place by electromagnets lnked in series to the power supply of the A/M pods. To protect against loss of this overpressure due to weapons fire this area should be heavilly armoured. If the pods' power supply fails, so will the electromagnets, and the overpressure will punch the core and A/M supply well clear of the ship. In the case of any non-pod related problem, the crew can pull the plug, with the same result.

1) The system is entirely dependent on the idea that heavy armour is invincible. If enemy weapons fire breaches the high pressure area at any point, in even a small area, then the entire ejection system fails completely. And if it does fail, the only possible way to restore it is to locate what could be a rather small crack in any one of a thousand places, repair it and repressurise.

2) The core is connected to the rest of the ship via the power transfer conduits. Your system makes no attempt to sever these, nor to drain them of the high energy plasma within them. When this system fires off (assuming it does) the PTCs would be ripped open and the plasma within would catastrophically vent. We can only really speculate as to how much energy this would release, but if it was even one second's worth of core output then it would be on the order of a one megaton explosion, minimum.

[Captain Seafort]

Which straight away means you can only eject the whole thing, losing you the ability to eject either the core or the pods independently of one another.

An alternative would be to set up similar systems for the pods and warp core independently.

1) The system is entirely dependent on the idea that heavy armour is invincible. If enemy weapons fire breaches the high pressure area at any point, in even a small area, then the entire ejection system fails completely. And if it does fail, the only possible way to restore it is to locate what could be a rather small crack in any one of a thousand places, repair it and repressurise.

And? The Defiant's armour stood up, unshielded, to bombardment from a Vor'cha in WotW and Breen warships in TCFoE for several minutes without losing atmosphere. Moreover, that fact that severe damage can disable the system does not make it useless. If the overpressure method is not to your liking then you can use powerful springs to produce the same effect.

2) The core is connected to the rest of the ship via the power transfer conduits. Your system makes no attempt to sever these, nor to drain them of the high energy plasma within them. When this system fires off (assuming it does) the PTCs would be ripped open and the plasma within would catastrophically vent. We can only really speculate as to how much energy this would release, but if it was even one second's worth of core output then it would be on the order of a one megaton explosion, minimum.

Easy solution: make the walls surrounding your "plug" (either the combined one I originally suggested, or a smaller design limited to the warp core alone) out of the same material the PTCs are made of. They're obviously capable of withstanding such temperatures for years on end.

[Graham Kennedy]

1) The system is entirely dependent on the idea that heavy armour is invincible. If enemy weapons fire breaches the high pressure area at any point, in even a small area, then the entire ejection system fails completely. And if it does fail, the only possible way to restore it is to locate what could be a rather small crack in any one of a thousand places, repair it and repressurise.

And? The Defiant's armour stood up, unshielded, to bombardment from a Vor'cha in WotW and Breen warships in TCFoE for several minutes without losing atmosphere.

And we have no idea what minor hull and bulkhead ruptures might have happened within the ship as a result.

Moreover, that fact that severe damage can disable the system does not make it useless. If the overpressure method is not to your liking then you can use powerful springs to produce the same effect.

Really? Because I thought your whole thesis was that the designers must be idiots precisely because damage can disable the ejection system.

2) The core is connected to the rest of the ship via the power transfer conduits. Your system makes no attempt to sever these, nor to drain them of the high energy plasma within them. When this system fires off (assuming it does) the PTCs would be ripped open and the plasma within would catastrophically vent. We can only really speculate as to how much energy this would release, but if it was even one second's worth of core output then it would be on the order of a one megaton explosion, minimum.

Easy solution: make the walls surrounding your "plug" (either the combined one I originally suggested, or a smaller design limited to the warp core alone) out of the same material the PTCs are made of. They're obviously capable of withstanding such temperatures for years on end.

The conduits aren't just metal pipes, they are lined with magnetic fields. To sever one you are going to have to isolate the section with the break line in it from the rest of the system, halting the plasma flow or redirecting it down secondary lines. Then you have to drain that section of the conduit of plasma. Then you have to shut down the magnetic fields in that system without affecting the integrity of the rest of the system. Then you can finally detach the conduit itself.

[Captain Seafort]

And we have no idea what minor hull and bulkhead ruptures might have happened within the ship as a result.

We do, however, know that no serious loss of pressure could have occured, since the crew survived, with no mention of casualties.

Really? Because I thought your whole thesis was that the designers must be idiots precisely because damage can disable the ejection system.

My thesis was that ships were being lost, not because of massive strutural damage, but because the ejection system was either overridden by the computer or lost power. "Generations" and YE are borderline cases, as it's possible that the damage sustained would have been sufficient to knock out any ejection system. "Contaigon", "Cause and Effect", and a couple of others, "Distaster" and "Thine Own Self", involved no physical damage to the power system.

The conduits aren't just metal pipes, they are lined with magnetic fields. To sever one you are going to have to isolate the section with the break line in it from the rest of the system, halting the plasma flow or redirecting it down secondary lines. Then you have to drain that section of the conduit of plasma. Then you have to shut down the magnetic fields in that system without affecting the integrity of the rest of the system. Then you can finally detach the conduit itself.

Or you simply smash the warp core clear and accept the fact that you're going to loose a lot of plasma. You're arguing that the ship could be badly damaged or destroyed by something that get piped around inside it as part of its normal operation. It's the starship equivalent of a nuclear powered warship suffering a broken steam line - it'll do some damage, but it isn't going to destroy the ship.

[Graham Kennedy]

We do, however, know that no serious loss of pressure could have occured, since the crew survived, with no mention of casualties.

Which only proves that any leaks were minor or localised, or that said leaks were internal rather than hull leaks. It does NOT prove that no such damage occurred at all.

My thesis was that ships were being lost, not because of massive strutural damage, but because the ejection system was either overridden by the computer or lost power. "Generations" and YE are borderline cases, as it's possible that the damage sustained would have been sufficient to knock out any ejection system. "Contaigon", "Cause and Effect", and a couple of others, "Distaster" and "Thine Own Self", involved no physical damage to the power system.

What we get to is how much damage was done on a case by case basis. But we have no real way to assess that. Canonically speaking, the only thing we can state in any given case is that the damage was sufficient to disable the ejection systems.

Or you simply smash the warp core clear and accept the fact that you're going to loose a lot of plasma. You're arguing that the ship could be badly damaged or destroyed by something that get piped around inside it as part of its normal operation. It's the starship equivalent of a nuclear powered warship suffering a broken steam line - it'll do some damage, but it isn't going to destroy the ship.

In Voyager it was once mentioned that they had five thousand Terawatts running through one single conduit - with the ship at impulse at the time, by the way. Even if you took that figure as the entire output of the warp core, and assumed that only one second's worth of it would be released in an improper core ejection, the resulting energy release would be essentially a one megaton bomb going off inside the ship.

Core ejections aren't something where you can just do it anyway and take the hit. It's done perfectly, or you may as well not bother.