Question about the Lakota

[I Am Spartacus]

But they still proved effective. This implies that Trek ECM is effective enough that the Cardies can't hit them at that range.

At such close ranges (no more than a few hundred metres away from the Galors) you wouldn't even need to lock onto a target. You'd simply need to see the target, and shoot at it. With weapons that reach out at close to the speed of light, with no change in trajectory or loss of speed along the way, visual contact would be all that is needed to kill each and every Federation fighter.

And you think the Cardassians/Dominion are so stupid that they don't equip any kind of ECCM at all?

[Teaos]

But flying in close limits the weapons that can be used on them. Phasers have a firing arc they can be avoided.

[I Am Spartacus]

But they weren't. In that particular shot, we see the Galor get off several shots and take down a couple. This is unrealistic because every fighter should have been shot down.

[Captain Seafort]

At such close ranges (no more than a few hundred metres away from the Galors) you wouldn't even need to lock onto a target. You'd simply need to see the target, and shoot at it. With weapons that reach out at close to the speed of light, with no change in trajectory or loss of speed along the way, visual contact would be all that is needed to kill each and every Federation fighter.

The speed of the weapon is irrelevent - what matters is how good the targetting is, and since they apparently have difficulty hitting Galaxys beyond a few kilometres, I see no reason why they should be able to easily hit a much smaller ship at closer range.

And you think the Cardassians/Dominion are so stupid that they don't equip any kind of ECCM at all?

Trek powers' ECM is obviously far better than their ECCM, given that one-on-one combat can take place at tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometres (as in "The Wounded", but fleet actions invariably take place at a few kilometres at best (as in every major battle in DS9).

[I Am Spartacus]

The speed of the weapon is irrelevent - what matters is how good the targetting is, and since they apparently have difficulty hitting Galaxys beyond a few kilometres, I see no reason why they should be able to easily hit a much smaller ship at closer range.

So Cardie gunners are just spacegoing Keystone Cops? At such close range, the weapon would hit the target the instant it left the emitter, and with no loss in speed or alteration in trajectory along the way, it's simply a matter of pointing and shooting. You wouldn't even need to lock on to down every single federation fighter at such close ranges.

Trek powers' ECM is obviously far better than their ECCM, given that one-on-one combat can take place at tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometres (as in "The Wounded", but fleet actions invariably take place at a few kilometres at best (as in every major battle in DS9).

I sincerely doubt that. Dominion military technology is clearly, in many ways, superior to Federation military technology.

[Captain Seafort]

So Cardie gunners are just spacegoing Keystone Cops? At such close range, the weapon would hit the target the instant it left the emitter, and with no loss in speed or alteration in trajectory along the way, it's simply a matter of pointing and shooting. You wouldn't even need to lock on to down every single federation fighter at such close ranges.

The weapon's beam will go wherever you aim it. If you don't aim it at the fighter it won't hit the fighter. If your targeting systems aren't good enough to accurately target the fighter the wepon characteristics are irrelevent.

Trek powers' ECM is obviously far better than their ECCM, given that one-on-one combat can take place at tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometres (as in "The Wounded", but fleet actions invariably take place at a few kilometres at best (as in every major battle in DS9).

I sincerely doubt that. Dominion military technology is clearly, in many ways, superior to Federation military technology.

Watch "The Die is Cast". Watch "Sacrifice of Angels". Watch "Tears of the Prophets". Watch "The Changing Face of Evil". Watch "What You Leave Behind". Combat invariably occurs at ranges of a few kilometres at best, and METRES at the closest (Sisko's order to close to 500m in TDIC, two Galaxys attacking a Galor from within 1 ship length in SoA).

[Blackstar the Chakat]

First of all, the weapon effectiveness against the Dominion ships was clearly improved and there appears to be no reason to assume that the Defiant's phaser's were uber-powered. During the Dominion war the weapons off all other ships seemed to be just as effective suggesting that the weapons were upgraded to be more effective against the Dominion.

Second of all, wasn't this supposed to be about the Lakota? The battle was a draw, the Lakota only officially lost because they let the Defiant get by them. At the end of the battle Worf refused to fire on them because another torpedo hit would destroy them. The Lakota could have destroyed the Defiant with it's Q-torps. The winner would have been whoever fired first.

The Defiant seems to match the Lakota in combat and can be produced with fewer resorces. Even if the Lakota was more powerful if it used it's full power a pair of Defiants would have beaten a single Lakota and would have cost less, or the same at most. And if the Lakota had to be repaired all that firepower would be in a dock, but if a pair of Defiants was in battle and one was in dock for repairs the other one would still be mobile.

[Teaos]

In battle it doesnt matter if you almost win. You win you live and he dies. Almost doesnt really matter.

[Deepcrush]

First off the Lakota project wasn't meant to replace anything, it was meant to upgrade what ships the fleet already had. Though it cost time and effort, much of the upgrades could be done by the ships crew. I think that the fleet is just stupid beyond belief for not upgrading every excelsior class ship as such. Sure it would take time but since they only need dry-dock for short amount of time for the refit. They ship yards can keep turning out newer ships while the older ships can spend their time in making the upgrades on their own. I'm not saying that they should build Lakota's, what I'm saying is that all the excelsior's left in the fleet should be upgraded as such. Its cheaper to build 3 defiants, but who cares if your letting the ships crew do all the work. Your not building anything new and your not wasting shipyard space. There is no reason not to do it. This here was a huge blunder by Starfleet. They have 250 excelsiors left in service at an avg combat rating of 400. If they let the crews make the upgrades then in two years they would have 251 Lakotas at a combat rating of 1300! That would be incredible!!! That would mean we would have 251 ships that could take out a dominion battlecruiser! OR six breen frigates, or 4 galors! I love the dominion, i love the whole build of the thing but i would freak if i would out of no where saw 250 battlecruisers pop up.

[Mikey]

You'll have to refresh my memory. Was it stated onscreen that the Lakota retrofit could be done that easily, without use of a shipyard, and by the extant crew? If not, I frankly don't believe that it would be that cheap in time, labor, and resources.

[Deepcrush]

Well first off, its rough to say how quick two years is for a starship. Second, most of the refit could be done outside of drydock, not all of it. The worst part of any refit is the prep work. If the crew spent the time to take care of this before entering the drydock the process would move much faster. The main hull would not need much change and the inside of the ship can have most of the prep work done by its crew, then they put into drydock for the upgrade implants for the ship. We've seen how good starfleet crews are at rebuilding and upgrading thier own ships (defiant, voy, ent, ds9) so i don't think it is out of the question, it is only a matter of time.

[Mikey]

I'm sorry if my memory fails, but where does it say onscreen that the refit would be that simple?

[Deepcrush]

For some reason, Starfleet likes to upgrade and does it well. Simple or not, it can and should be done. It wouldn't be to hard, it just takes time and resources that much of which could most likely be replicated. It isn't a matter or picking either side, its that they need both. Both, new advanced ships and to upgrade their older ships.

[Mikey]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing; I would just like to know where it was stated that the Lakota mods could be done that easily and cheaply.

[Deepcrush]

I feel I'm missing my point and for that I am sorry. Cost wise, yes it would be pricey and i never said it wouldn't be but again Starfleet crews have proven time and again that they can work wonders. The Lakota project was started when the dominion destroyed the odyssey. So my guess was about two years of secret upgrades out of the lime light. If Starfleet command put their full weight behind the class upgrade. Then I feel it should take at least a third less time. Just a estimated guess but one that I feel is justified.