Picard's Worst Decision

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I never said compensation would fill every possible detail of the Ba'ku's demands. They are, however, only 600 people, whereas as Dougherty said, the harvesting would benefit billions. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

It's not a matter of how long you can live, but it's a matter of if you can live with yourself.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

As picard himself asked, how many lives before it's wrong? Where's the nebulous defining line?

[Captain Seafort]

As picard himself asked, how many lives before it's wrong? Where's the nebulous defining line?

I don't know. I would have thought, however, that it would be obvious that when the number aided is six or seven orders of magnitude greater than the number inconvenienced the balance of harm vs gain is overwhelmingly in favour of harvesting the rings.

[Aaron]

Here's a thought: if the technobabble medical BS is going to extend the life of Federation citizens, then use it on the bloody Baku as well. Then they could live in their new home and still live for a lot longer.

[Captain Seafort]

I know the numbers but its about right and wrong.

And placing the "needs" of a few hundred hypocritical, luddite squatters above a medical revolution that would benefit billions is "right" is it?

What is it that gives you the right to take it away?

The fact that the Federation could use it help billions, whereas the Ba'ku were only 600, and would be relocated to another planet with as close a match to the environment of the Briar Patch planet as possible.

WRONG! You are such a sad little boy. Fighting lasted until 1814 when England gave up trying to take back the US.

So, as well as not understanding the moral principle of "the needs of the many..", you don't even know your own country's history. The American revolution ended with the Treaty of Paris in 1782, after the defeat at Yorktown - itself due almost entirely to the French naval victory at the Battle of the Chesapeake. The American contribution to the overall victory comsisted of being stubborn buggers who managed to avoid total defeat long enough for the French to decide to join in.

The War of 1812 started (surprisingly enough) in 1812, when the US Army invaded and attempted to annex Canada. They got a stuffing at the hands of the local TA, who went on to burn down Washinton DC, and then went home. The war ended in 1815, once it was established that the US had learnt its lesson.

*snip repetition*

Yes, yes, you have a distorted idea of right and wrong, I got that. If the Fed/Son'a alliance was simply aiming to wipe out the Ba'ku, or dump them on some barely-inhabitable rock, or the radiation would only help a few thousand people, I'd agree that it doesn't balance. Since this is not the case, you're spouting gibberish.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

The fact that the Federation could use it help billions, whereas the Ba'ku were only 600, and would be relocated to another planet with as close a match to the environment of the Briar Patch planet as possible.

Since you don't see the moral issues let's try a different angle:

The Son'a had even smaller numbers and were able to create a formidable force, not enough to fight a full scale war, but enough to make an alliance with the Federation and the Dominion. Imagine how much more dangerous 600 of these guys will be. And they're using weapons outlawed by treaties so the Federation will be at a disadvantage.

The war ended in 1815, once it was established that the US had learnt its lesson

ya, good job with that. Do you do stand up comedy?

Are you really behind this opinion or are you playing devil's advocate

[Captain Seafort]

Since you don't see the moral issues let's try a different angle:

It's the moral argument that I'm trying to explain to Deep. Unsucessfully apparently.

The Son'a had even smaller numbers and were able to create a formidable force, not enough to fight a full scale war, but enough to make an alliance with the Federation and the Dominion. Imagine how much more dangerous 600 of these guys will be. And they're using weapons outlawed by treaties so the Federation will be at a disadvantage.

The Son'a were technocrats. The Ba'ku were a bunch of luddities, nd pacifist luddities at that. They weren't a threat.

Are you really behind this opinion or are you playing devil's advocate

It's not an opinion, but incontrovertable histoical fact - the Battle of New Orleans was fought on 8th January 1815. Not 1814.

[Mikey]

Seafort -

#1 - I'm still unfamiliar with some British parlance. What is a "ludditie?"

#2 - The Battle of New Orleans was fought AFTER the war ended by treaty. Still enough of a victory to make Jackson president, but not one in the strategic sphere of the actual war.

#3 - I may not agree wholeheartedly, but I do understand the point you are making. However, you are arguing a concrete point against an intangible ideal; the idea that Picard was rallying around was that using the disparity in numbers to justify the UFP's actions was the apex of a very slippery slope.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Since you don't see the moral issues let's try a different angle:

It's the moral argument that I'm trying to explain to Deep. Unsucessfully apparently.

Where's the morality in your argument? Kill 600 people so your life might last a little longer? I hope that you use that time to buy yourself a new conscious.

The Son'a had even smaller numbers and were able to create a formidable force, not enough to fight a full scale war, but enough to make an alliance with the Federation and the Dominion. Imagine how much more dangerous 600 of these guys will be. And they're using weapons outlawed by treaties so the Federation will be at a disadvantage.

The Son'a were technocrats. The Ba'ku were a bunch of luddities, nd pacifist luddities at that. They weren't a threat.

Neither is a bear until you anger it.

Are you really behind this opinion or are you playing devil's advocate

It's not an opinion, but incontrovertable histoical fact - the Battle of New Orleans was fought on 8th January 1815. Not 1814.

I was refering to the Ba'ku thing. But wasn't that the battle that was fought weeks after the war ended because mail was so slow back then and the commanders didn't know the war was over?

[Captain Seafort]

#1 - I'm still unfamiliar with some British parlance. What is a "ludditie?"

It comes from the late 18th/early 19th century - cotton weavers, and various other skilled labourers used to smash up machinery, since they were worried about the machines completely removing their jobs. In a few of these cases, notes were left sighed "Ned Ludd", from whence the term comes. It's generally used to describe extreme technophobes.

Wiki

#2 - The Battle of New Orleans was fought AFTER the war ended by treaty. Still enough of a victory to make Jackson president, but not one in the strategic sphere of the actual war.

True, but as the last major action of the war it's as good a point as any to mark it's end, even if it was a fortnight after the official end.

#3 - I may not agree wholeheartedly, but I do understand the point you are making. However, you are arguing a concrete point against an intangible ideal; the idea that Picard was rallying around was that using the disparity in numbers to justify the UFP's actions was the apex of a very slippery slope.

I'm aware of Picard's argument - it's a slipperly slope fallacy. The possibility that at some point in the future a similar situation might arise in which the numbers involved were closer is not a valid argument against the harvesting of the Briar Patch planet's rings. Each situation should be analysed on it's own merits, not what might happen years in the future.

[Captain Seafort]

Where's the morality in your argument? Kill 600 people so your life might last a little longer? I hope that you use that time to buy yourself a new conscious.

Huh? Have you even seen the film? They weren't going to kill anyone (except Ru'afo, towards the end). The objective was to use the holoship to relocate the Ba'ku to another planet with as similar terrain and climate as could be found.

Neither is a bear until you anger it.

A bear has the ability to inflict harm on a person. The Ba'ku have no technology even remotely capable of posing a threat to the Federation.

I was refering to the Ba'ku thing. But wasn't that the battle that was fought weeks after the war ended because mail was so slow back then and the commanders didn't know the war was over?

Correct, about two weeks later. As I said in response to Mikey, the fact that it was fought after the treaty was signed doesn't change the fact that it was fought as part of the War of 1812.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

True, but as the last major action of the war it's as good a point as any to mark it's end, even if it was a fortnight after the official end

But I thought it happened two weeks after the war was officially over, because the mail was slow. It's like getting one last kick in when the ref is seperating a pair of fighters after their time is up.

I'm aware of Picard's argument - it's a slipperly slope fallacy. The possibility that at some point in the future a similar situation might arise in which the numbers involved were closer is not a valid argument against the harvesting of the Briar Patch planet's rings. Each situation should be analysed on it's own merits, not what might happen years in the future.

Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 600 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 1,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 1000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 10,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 10,000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 100,000 this time? How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? What is the magic number?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

They weren't going to kill anyone

Funny, similar things were said about ever other forced relocation. We're not killing them with guns, we're killing them slowly. What if these people suffer from territorial attachment syndrome? What if they can't adapt to the new planet?

A bear has the ability to inflict harm on a person. The Ba'ku have no technology even remotely capable of posing a threat to the Federation

Right...then where did the Son'a acquire the ships and weapons in such a short period of time? The technology must have come from somewhere. A handful of Son'a threatened the E-E, and would've destroyed it without the Riker maneuver interference. What happens when the Ba'ku get pissed off, rebuild their technology and get their revenge?

[Captain Seafort]

Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 600 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 1,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 1000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 10,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 10,000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 100,000 this time? How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? What is the magic number?

Aside from the fact that no "wiping out" of anyone was involved in the plan, we're not talking about x years in the future, we're talking about the Ba'ku relocation. To say that "well at some point someone might do xyz" is not a valid argument against the proposal at hand - that's what I mean when I call it a "slipperly slope fallacy".

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 600 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 1,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 1000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 10,000 this time? Hey, we wiped out a civilization of 10,000 people, what's wrong with wiping out a group of 100,000 this time? How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? What is the magic number?

Aside from the fact that no "wiping out" of anyone was involved in the plan, we're not talking about x years in the future, we're talking about the Ba'ku relocation. To say that "well at some point someone might do xyz" is not a valid argument against the proposal at hand - that's what I mean when I call it a "slipperly slope fallacy".

Have you ever had your culture forcably relocated? Ever know anyone who has? Ever forced a culture to relocate? If you did then you would know that many cultures die or suffer horriably, and these are are cultures of 1000's, and the Ba'ku are only 600. Do you think any of them will really survive? Considering the federation hasn't had the greatest history of relocation I honestly doubt it.