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GrahamKennedy wrote: Kind of surprised anybody thinks Starfleet would just summarily execute Khan's people. The Federation doesn't even have a death penalty that we know of (Talos aside). Even if they have, and are prepared to use it on Khan... his popsicle people haven't actually done anything illegal yet. Summary mass executions of people because they might break the law? Really?

You are right but (as has been demonstrated several times) they are too dangerous to keep them alive, look all the damage Khan did by himself, imagine 73 of them.
Of course we know UFP wont kill them, plus section 31 may have other plans for them.

Tsukiyumi wrote:Did I misunderstand, or does the neo-E seem to have broadside torpedo launchers?

They may not have been purpose build launchers. Could have been escape pod bays refit for the mission.

stitch626 wrote:They may not have been purpose build launchers. Could have been escape pod bays refit for the mission.

Good idea, there. When they all started loading, I thought, 'wait a minute...'

Yeah. Looked like pirates of the caribbean for some seconds

GrahamKennedy wrote:

Avatar2312 wrote:You mean leaving technology behind, that represents your total travelling advantage, at the mercy of a timed or remote detonator is no good reason for you?
Sorry. Then there are no good reasons for you - and never will be, no matter the reason

In a world where a weapon the size of a pack of cigarettes can disintegrate a piece of hardware so that there is literally nothing whatsoever left of it? No, that's not a good reason. It is in fact a terrible, awful reason.

Hell man, you're siding with the JANEWAY idea of what's reasonable here!

Here we are. It CAN. It (any form of self destruct) CAN (substitutes for could here ) also malfunction. Any mission CAN fail in a billion ways and the enemy would have a device in perfect condition. The reason is good. The problem is, that for doing such a mission you need to bring your advanced technology for travelling with you into the middle of the shitstorm. That way you may simply replace the warhead on one of those new torpedoes with a transwarp-beaming device and land it in front of the high council on Kronos with a letter reading: "With courtesy from the United Federation of Planets. Please don't kill us!"

Avatar2312 wrote:

GrahamKennedy wrote:

Avatar2312 wrote:You mean leaving technology behind, that represents your total travelling advantage, at the mercy of a timed or remote detonator is no good reason for you?
Sorry. Then there are no good reasons for you - and never will be, no matter the reason

In a world where a weapon the size of a pack of cigarettes can disintegrate a piece of hardware so that there is literally nothing whatsoever left of it? No, that's not a good reason. It is in fact a terrible, awful reason.

Hell man, you're siding with the JANEWAY idea of what's reasonable here!

Here we are. It CAN. It (any form of self destruct) CAN (substitutes for could here ) also malfunction. Any mission CAN fail in a billion ways and the enemy would have a device in perfect condition. The reason is good. The problem is, that for doing such a mission you need to bring your advanced technology for travelling with you into the middle of the shitstorm. That way you may simply replace the warhead on one of those new torpedoes with a transwarp-beaming device and land it in front of the high council on Kronos with a letter reading: "With courtesy from the United Federation of Planets. Please don't kill us!"

And if Janeway had left a torpedo behind on a timer on the Caretaker's array it could have malfunctioned and given the Kazon advanced weapons technology. Like I said, you're siding with Janeway here.

And if the US flies jets into a foreign country they might get shot down and captured, better not do that then. Better use slingshots instead.

And so on. Possibly losing good technology is not a good reason to cripple your own forces.

I just saw it a second time today.

I enjoyed it, thought it was a bit better than the last one--no "Red Matter".

I loved the terrified look on Chekov's face when Kirk tells him to put on a red shirt.

I love Chris Pine's "Space, the final frontier..." at the end. It kind of made me wanting a new TV series following this crew. Although, when movies go to the small screen, there's a nasty tendency to re-cast some, if not all, the key characters.

I have mixed feelings about Kirk's death scene. I appreciate the whole reversal of the WoK scene, but I didn't feel any of the same emotions as I do during the Shatner/Nimoy exchange. Mostly because I had a feeling Kirk wasn't going to stay dead. And, the first time I watched it, my mind was constantly going back to the WoK scene. And then, there was Spock's "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!" which kind of ruined the moment.

Speaking of Khan, I think they mis-cast him. I have nothing against Cumberpatch, but I felt they should have kept him Indian. But, I suppose it could have been worse. They could have gone the Battlestar Galactica route and made the character a woman.

I don't think the Vengeance was all that secret. In the briefing room where Kirk requests Marcus to go after Khan, there was a model of it in that line up right after the Kelvin model. Speaking of those models, an interesting point--they seem to be in chronological order, but putting the SS Enterprise (the mysterious one seen only as a picture ever since The Motion Picture) before the Pheonix.

And, why are Starfleet Officers suddenly wearing hats?


Well, these were my ramblings.

Saw it last night, and generally agree with Graham's review. First of all (most basic to a good movie), it was fun. It really did pretty well at continuing the character arcs started in Abrams' first reboot.

I was actually wondering about the torpedo plan from Khan's perspective. It certainly was innovative and clever, but risky to try to smuggle his men out inside of torpedoes. He could have just as well gotten his men blown up accidentally even if Adm Marcus hadn't discovered him. For Khan it may have been a desperate time, though the first thing that struck me wasn't how Marcus intended to treat the torpedoes but how Khan intended to recover his men safely.

Also, from a technical side, I don't recall whether the stasis tubes replaced the propulsion systems or the warhead, but either way it would have rendered the torpedoes incapable of completing Marcus' mission of traveling through interstellar space and blowing up on Kronos. They did blow up after being transported aboard Vengeance, though this was after McCoy removed Khan's men. I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but is there something I missed here?

It's interesting to consider what Khan was actually trying to do with the torpedoes before he got caught.

We can only guess. If I were writing it, I would have Khan's plan be that the torpedoes were intended to equip the USS Vengeance. That would make perfect sense given the type of ship it is. Khan then planned to get on board himself, at a time when there were few crew aboard. He would gain control of the life support systems and use them to kill those crew who were aboard and make off with the ship and torps both. Once in a safe place he could restore life support and revive his people. Then he has a full crew, the most powerful warship around, and a payload of still functional advanced torps to go with it. Win win win for Khan.

As for the torps, the film only really makes sense if they were fully functional. We know the warheads were, because they blew up on the Vengeance. And we can only assume the propulsion systems were, because otherwise the whole "fire them at the Klingon home world" thing makes no sense at all. Surely Admiral Marcus couldn't have intended Kirk to shoot the torpedoes out the tubes and then have them just kind of float around next to the ship doing nothing, right?

GrahamKennedy wrote:It's interesting to consider what Khan was actually trying to do with the torpedoes before he got caught.

We can only guess. If I were writing it, I would have Khan's plan be that the torpedoes were intended to equip the USS Vengeance. That would make perfect sense given the type of ship it is. Khan then planned to get on board himself, at a time when there were few crew aboard. He would gain control of the life support systems and use them to kill those crew who were aboard and make off with the ship and torps both. Once in a safe place he could restore life support and revive his people. Then he has a full crew, the most powerful warship around, and a payload of still functional advanced torps to go with it. Win win win for Khan.

As for the torps, the film only really makes sense if they were fully functional. We know the warheads were, because they blew up on the Vengeance. And we can only assume the propulsion systems were, because otherwise the whole "fire them at the Klingon home world" thing makes no sense at all. Surely Admiral Marcus couldn't have intended Kirk to shoot the torpedoes out the tubes and then have them just kind of float around next to the ship doing nothing, right?

Well this is more or less what Khan seems to have tried to do in the film, after he shot aboard with Kirk. I guess the Torps had to have been functional, though they're not too much bigger than the stasis containers themselves. It just seems a bit starved for space, and begs the question of what WAS removed!

Remember, Khan did not know the torps were on the Enterprise until after Sulu sent the message. He had originally planned on rescuing them, and when that failed, he went on his rampage ( seemingly giving up on rescue).

Since Marcus seemed to know about them being in the torps, my guess is they still had enough fuel for a long range strike, or maybe using the super transporter or something.

stitch626 wrote:Remember, Khan did not know the torps were on the Enterprise until after Sulu sent the message. He had originally planned on rescuing them, and when that failed, he went on his rampage ( seemingly giving up on rescue).

Since Marcus seemed to know about them being in the torps, my guess is they still had enough fuel for a long range strike, or maybe using the super transporter or something.

There's nothing in the film to indicate Admiral Marcus intended the subspace transporter be used though. Hypothetically it could have been said off-camera but there should have been some hint if it were the case, even after they were loaded on Enterprise.

As an aside, it just struck me that if Scotty invented it in the future in the original universe, where were the signs of it in TNG-era Trek? It would seem contradictory to the excitement over the discovery of the Iconian teleportation device if Starfleet already had something like it.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:

stitch626 wrote:Remember, Khan did not know the torps were on the Enterprise until after Sulu sent the message. He had originally planned on rescuing them, and when that failed, he went on his rampage ( seemingly giving up on rescue).

Since Marcus seemed to know about them being in the torps, my guess is they still had enough fuel for a long range strike, or maybe using the super transporter or something.

As an aside, it just struck me that if Scotty invented it in the future in the original universe, where were the signs of it in TNG-era Trek? It would seem contradictory to the excitement over the discovery of the Iconian teleportation device if Starfleet already had something like it.

My guess, it violated the PD in some obscure way.

This might be off topic to the current discussion but I just realized, did the Enterprise even fire a shot this movie?

LaughingCheese wrote:This might be off topic to the current discussion but I just realized, did the Enterprise even fire a shot this movie?

I had the same thought. Spock beamed over the 72 torpedoes set to detonate to disable Vengeance but I don't recall seeing Enterprise fire a phaser or torpedo conventionally.