SFDebris: Blaze of Glory

[Sonic Glitch]

The same impulse that drove people to watch the gladiatorial games in ancient Rome drives people to slow down when they see a car wreck.

Hmm, strange, I slow down to see if anyone needs help.

I guess I'm weird.

Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...

I believe what Tyyr is saying (or it may be just what I'm saying, but I feel it doesn't threaten his point) is that on an individual level, humans can be raised to be considerate, intelligent, etc but human nature has not, and will not change; merely our ability to give into or control that nature at any given point. The basic drives of humanity are still present.

[Vic]

How about this, human nature is basically animalistic, kill or be killed, Law of Tooth and Claw. Is that it in a nutshell?

This of course does not take into account that billions of individuals consciously override this instinct every day. Just as Sonic points out.

The future of Star Trek just posits that humans are vastly better at constantly choosing to than we do today.

That is until their lives and more importantly their freedom is jeopardised, then the claws come out and the teeth are beared.

[Tyyr]

Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...

And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?

[Nickswitz]

Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...

And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?

Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. I'm almost always the only one that is trying to solve it..

[Mark]

Yeah I am the same way in school, I go to a fight to stop it... So I guess we were just raised to be more responsible than the rest...

And while you're running in heroically to break up the fight how many people are just standing around watching it or cheering it on?

Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. I'm almost always the only one that is trying to solve it..

Thats USUALLY the most dangerous place to be ya know

[Deepcrush]

Thats USUALLY the most dangerous place to be ya know

Thats my job you're talking about.

[Captain Seafort]

Doesn't that rather prove his point?

[Mark]

Thanks for making my point

[Deepcrush]

[Atekimogus]

I've continued to argue that humans today are no different from humans in the history and given that our basic natures have changed little in that time. You decided to start arguing that the society had evolved as opposed to just the people while I've continued to argue the original point that people are still just people.

Which I never opposed, just your notion that because humans on an individual level have not changed in the last odd 10k years it doesn't mean that society has not changed and evolved, which it has, regardless if you want to admit it or not.

What this means for the specific topic is that, even though the people of the Maquis are still mostly humans with all the instincts, emotions and whatnot they ever had, they also come from a society preaching the betterment of oneself and strange concepts of individual and equal rights etc which if you like it or not do influence how we behave on an individual level. For example, altough humans are still the same they were thousands of years ago just go around and treat women like in 1920 and see how society reacts to that by and large and then come back and tell my your female cooworkers and/or superiors did find your new macho-attidude so charming.... . (Assuming you live somewhere were females do enjoy the same rights as males, and not just in theory.)

Now add to that they are stranded away from home surrounded by hostile aliens and I find it far more unlikely that they choose the suicidal option taking on the deltaquadrant alone rather than cooperating with the only humans around, maybe former opponents, yet at least humans. (Oh...and they happen to have the only human-friendly long range ship around for the next few thousand lightyears.) So, yes they would exactly behave like in the show, they won't like it much but swallow their pride and go along to live another day.

Which has nothing to do with the basic point being that humans are still the massive collection of assholes we've always been.

As I said, a rather cynic view which I can assure you is not shared by everyone, but hey, if you are a hindu you got at least a second shoot, good luck.

And you have blatantly ignored the fact that of everything on that list the only one directly tied to WWII was the holocaust. You ignored the Stalinist regime, the Maoist regime, the Khmer rogue, Africa as a whole, etc. If you want to argue that WWII is an outlier then fine, go for it, now what's your explanation for the rest of the list? Are all of them outliers?

Of course they are. Is there still a stalinist regime in the former udssr? Mao still alive? I never said that all is love and roses on the planet right now, some societies are ahead of others either economical, cultural or in the recognition of human rights, but there is a trend that things are getting better imho. And with they world being connected like never before there might be a huge opportunity that with time those things will permanently progress. (Sure, or it all might go down in ww3, but I do not see this as inevitable or even much likely).

And you've completely missed the point. I used MMA because it's a pretty easy analogy to make but the core issue is that we're still sick spectacle junkies. MMA, boxing, slowing down on the side of the road for a car wreck, going to a movie to watch someone gun down hundreds of people, or some girl get hacked apart. We still pay good money to watch bad things happen to other people for no good reason even if they are ultimately imaginary.

First it is YOU who missed the point, that deducing basic human behavior with a niche-sport is a pretty weak argument. Given the popularity of that sport I am sure for every fan I can give you 10 people who never heard of it, 20 who are appalled and disgusted and 40 who don't care.

But for the sake of the argument, are you f****** seriously? A human enjoying a hack and slay movie is for you on the same level as an ancient human gladiator who actually might hack and slay someone apart for real? You know it actually does count VERY much if something is ultimately imaginary or not, because people not being able to differentiate are likely to be isolated for exactly that reason.
Having the option to satisfy those need for spectacle and entertainment without actually having to hurt someone is maybe not a perfect solution but it IS progress. Maybe not good enough for you but then I get the impression nothing ever will be.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

How about this, human nature is basically animalistic, kill or be killed, Law of Tooth and Claw. Is that it in a nutshell?

This of course does not take into account that billions of individuals consciously override this instinct every day. Just as Sonic points out.

The future of Star Trek just posits that humans are vastly better at constantly choosing to than we do today.

That is until their lives and more importantly their freedom is jeopardised, then the claws come out and the teeth are beared.

That was outright stated in TOS episode 'The Armageddon factor'. Kirk said that, yes, deep down they were animals. They could kill. They just chose not to kill today.

[Vic]

One of my favorite quotes is from the TAS, One of Our Planets is Missing. It includes the phrase, I will not kill today.

[Tyyr]

Which I never opposed, just your notion that because humans on an individual level have not changed in the last odd 10k years it doesn't mean that society has not changed and evolved, which it has, regardless if you want to admit it or not.

I'll happily admit that it's changed, but it hasn't evolved in the sense you're suggesting.

For example, altough humans are still the same they were thousands of years ago just go around and treat women like in 1920 and see how society reacts to that by and large and then come back and tell my your female cooworkers and/or superiors did find your new macho-attidude so charming.... . (Assuming you live somewhere were females do enjoy the same rights as males, and not just in theory.)

Well, first off even in wonderfully advanced western society there are plenty of men who still think that way and women who would agree. There's also an indeterminant number of people of both sexes who probably wouldn't protest that loudly even if things did roll back to the 1920's in regards to women's lib. That's in western society. In the other 85% of the world that goes from a minorty view point to the dominant one right now either enforced by tradition or actual law. Then again, fuck'em. They're not part of western society, they're outliers. Sure it's 85% of the world's population but hey, what's that matter?

Now add to that they are stranded away from home surrounded by hostile aliens and I find it far more unlikely that they choose the suicidal option taking on the deltaquadrant alone rather than cooperating with the only humans around, maybe former opponents, yet at least humans. (Oh...and they happen to have the only human-friendly long range ship around for the next few thousand lightyears.) So, yes they would exactly behave like in the show, they won't like it much but swallow their pride and go along to live another day.

Except no one has suggested that a Maquis would strap symtex to their chest and bum rush the warp core. The disagreement is that you see a single memeber of the Maquis have any reaction at all to their destruction. At the very least there should be some hand wringing and emotional turmoil, some verbal lashing out, and yet none of the Maquis save Torres seem to have any reaction at all. Even if the bulk of the Maquis do go about their business like good little Starfleet drones we've already established before that some members of the Maquis were still rather insistent on still seeing themselves as Maqui before Starfleet before. Again, the fact that no one in the group seems to have made so much as a peep is just ridiculous.

As I said, a rather cynic view which I can assure you is not shared by everyone,

No, some people put on rose colored glasses, don't look past the ends of their noses, jam their fingers in their ears and scream, "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the top of their lungs. Doesn't make them right.

Of course they are.

I think you should really rethink that statement. When I can name almost a dozen different instances of widespread, institutionalized, human against human brutality in the last 80 years that have accounted for the deaths over well over 100 million human beings and inflicted misery and suffering upon ten times that number I think we've moved from the realm of outliers that can be ignored to actual problems with integrating into a nice a rosy world outlook.

Is there still a stalinist regime in the former udssr?

There was for about fifty years. Stalin died, it tends to happen with people, but the USSR soldiered on into the 1980s. What we've got now doesn't appear to be that much better, human rights wise.

Mao still alive?

No, Mao died. It happens. The wonderful country he helped found on the bodies of over 60 million of his own people is still around though. How'd Tiannemen square work out for the whole "evolved society," thing?

First it is YOU who missed the point, that deducing basic human behavior with a niche-sport is a pretty weak argument.

Can you pay attention for half a second? In the very same paragraph I pointed out that my allusions to it were simply because it was a quick and dirty comparison, not that my arguement was based upon that.

But for the sake of the argument, are you f****** seriously? A human enjoying a hack and slay movie is for you on the same level as an ancient human gladiator who actually might hack and slay someone apart for real?

No I'm not fucking serious because I never said it was on the same level. I said it spoke to the same age old urges to see bad things happen to other people.

You know it actually does count VERY much if something is ultimately imaginary or not,
...
Having the option to satisfy those need for spectacle and entertainment without actually having to hurt someone is maybe not a perfect solution but it IS progress.

Not really. In the context of this argument either action, real or imaginary violence, speaks to satisfying the same basic urge that has been present since the dawn of humanity. Progress is not finding new ways to satisfy the urge. Progress would be eliminating it. If there was no market for spectaclized violence anymore I'd say there's been progress made. If there were more people looking to break up fights with Nick than watching them I might say some progress has been made. If people stopped to help at car wrecks instead of just slowing down hoping to see some blood I might say some progress has been made. That would be actual progress.

Maybe not good enough for you but then I get the impression nothing ever will be.

No, actual progress would be good enough for me. Actually changing the way that people think and react would make an impression. Claiming that progress has been made by classifying 85% of humanity today, and a hundred years of world history outliers as well as just ignoring behaviors and trends present today does make an impression on me. Not a tremendously favorable one. I'm fine with optimism, I like optimists. I can't stand ones that don't know when to check the optimism at the door and deal with reality though.

Anyways, I said my piece. Getting sick of arguing with a brick wall.

[Tsukiyumi]

...If there were more people looking to break up fights with Nick than watching them I might say some progress has been made...

Depending on the reason for the confrontation, I'd say that wouldn't be the good sort of progress. Nothing wrong with violence, as long as there's a good reason for it. IMO, of course.

[Deepcrush]

Violence, like many other actions, is an means to an end. Sometimes there are better choices, sometimes there are no other choices.

The Maquis felt they had no other choices. They acted to defend their homes, a very human action.