Galaxy class

[Sionnach Glic]

Quite true.
And you're right, it would be more of a cruiser.
Point conceded. Not a battleship, but definately some sort of warship.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I still don't think it's a warship. It can be used as one but that doesn't mean it is one. A bounty hunter can bring in bad guys all the time in his car, but that doesn't mean it's a police car.

[Graham Kennedy]

Imagine you took a modern ship designed for exploration - the Knorr say, that thing they discovered the Titanic with. Suppose they stuck a 5 inch cannon on the front and a handful of 50 cal machine guns around the sides.

Now suppose everybody else in the world built warships along the lines of HMS Victory; sails, fixed cannon with solid shot. But all built as dedicated warships.

The Knorr would be perfectly capable of sinking any other ship in the world. Or indeed EVERY other ship in the world, one after the other. A speed advantage, the ability to move regardless of the wind, radar, and a cannon with explosive shells would make her utterly unbeatable.

But she wouldn't be a warship, to my mind.

To my mind, a ship is a warship if fighting is the primary purpose of the design. How much of the space in a Galaxy class is given over to weapons and shields, as compared to science labs and holodecks? My guess is that there are far more of the latter than there are of the former. I'd be prepared to bet that that is most definitely not the case in a Vor'cha or D'Deridex, which is why I consider them to be warships.

[Sionnach Glic]

You do have a point there, but how it is used is also important.

We know Starfleet uses its ships for exploration.
We know that these ships are armed with sufficient weapons to take down hostile warships.
We know these ships are routinely deployed in combat against enemy warships.
We know these ships are used to defend Federation space.
We know these ships are deployed in fleet actions.

This is the whole 'jack of all trades' idea Starfleet has showing again. The ship has several different roles, one is exploring and another is as a warship. They are used on both roles, so I consider them to be a hybrid of both. However minor this role is, the fact remains it is designed to combat enemy warships, how much of the onboard space is used for this role may be tiny in regards to the other roles the ship has, but it is still there.

In your example of the Knorr class. I would not consider her a warship simply by arming her. I would consider her a warship if she was sent out to fight these other ships, to defend territory and fight in fleet actions. Other possible roles are still there and she still has the possibility of going exploring, but the fact remains one of her roles is to combat other ships.

[Thorin]

You seem to be under the impression that the act of fighting in a battle far less often than the act of doing anything else overrides the act of doing anything else. Why?

[Captain Seafort]

Going back to the point about nuclear weapons, the Iowas were nuclear-capable. Obviously whether they actually carried any is classified, but they were refitted with Tomahawk missile launchers in the 80's, and there's a nuclear version of Tomahawk. I believe there was also a design for a nuclear 16" shell, but I'm not sure if any were actually produced.

[Sionnach Glic]

You seem to be under the impression that the act of fighting in a battle far less often than the act of doing anything else overrides the act of doing anything else. Why?

*sigh*

No, I'm not. The fact that one of the roles of the Galaxy class is as a warship is undisputable. I have posted reasons in the other thread in which we are discussing this topic.

[Teaos]

There we are. We just have different deffinitions of the same word. You class a Warship as anything that is used to fight. We class it as something thats main purpose in life is to fight.

We know these ships are routinely deployed in combat against enemy warships.

Barring the Enterprise which is the Federation problem solver I would hardly call it routinely.

[Sionnach Glic]

There we are. We just have different deffinitions of the same word. You class a Warship as anything that is used to fight. We class it as something thats main purpose in life is to fight.

Then what would you class a ship that has several roles, such as the Galaxy?

Also:

war·ship - noun a ship built or armed for combat purposes.

Also called war vessel.

The Galaxy class is well armed and capable of taking on the principle warships of other races. This capability is hardly an accident giving its performance in combat roles. So it seems the English language agrees with me.

Although I haven't a clue what the Irish dictionary is on about...

Longa cogaidh le tiomáint mheicniúil, seaches scinnárthaí

"Warships, mechanicaly propelled, excluding air-cushioned type"

What the hell?
Anyway...

Barring the Enterprise which is the Federation problem solver I would hardly call it routinely.

The fact that the class is called into combat against enemy ships at all means my point is valid.
I admit the word 'routinely' was a bad choice.

[Teaos]

Compared to others its well armed but for its size it is pretty crap really. You would struggle even with calling it a cruiser.

I'd call it an Tactical Explorer. Or something like that. Considering the small % of space devoted to weapon and pretty much no armor it struggles with any military classification.

[Sionnach Glic]

Compared to others its well armed but for its size it is pretty crap really. You would struggle even with calling it a cruiser.

Back to the dictionary,

Cruiser
Noun
2. one of a class of warships of medium tonnage, designed for high speed and long cruising radius.

Maybe not completely aplicable in all ways, but I'd still be happy calling it a cruiser. Simply from lack of a better term.

Considering the small % of space devoted to weapon and pretty much no armor it struggles with any military classification.

I take it you're refering to the 10% of the ship taken up by weapons quote?
Its not that simple though, ten percent may not seem like much but ask yourself, how much percentage is given to crew quaters, engines, reactor, computer controls, recreation areas, bridge, seperation mechanisms, jeffries tubes, miscelaneus support systems, shuttlebay, transporters, etc. I'd be surprised if exploration and science epuipment take up more than 10 or 15 percent.

[Graham Kennedy]

In your example of the Knorr class. I would not consider her a warship simply by arming her. I would consider her a warship if she was sent out to fight these other ships, to defend territory and fight in fleet actions. Other possible roles are still there and she still has the possibility of going exploring, but the fact remains one of her roles is to combat other ships.

Personally I don't consider that being used in combat automatically makes a ship a warship. It's a matter of design to me.

[Sionnach Glic]

True, but the Galaxy class is able to take on the heaviest warships of other races, it is able to serve adequatley in combat and participate in fleet actions. I find it unlikely they gave the ship these abilities by accident.

[Captain Seafort]

Personally I don't consider that being used in combat automatically makes a ship a warship.

I would say it does, if you define that as being specifically equipped for the purpose of finding and destroying the enemy. What you described with the refit of the Knorr was an Armed Merchant Cruiser. The Royal Navy operated plenty of them during the World Wars - took a passenger liner, bolted on a few 6-inch guns and some armour plate, and sent them out to take on the enemy. They were commissioned ships, bearing the "HMS" prefix, commanded by RN officers, with RN personnel manning the armament (they usually asked the ships' original crew to volunteer to run the ship itself, and kept the civilian commander aboard with RNR rank as the 2iC). They were piss-poor warships (and were decommissioned and returned the civilian use after HMS Rawalpindi was sunk trying to take on a couple of German battlecruisers single-handed) but they were warships.

[Graham Kennedy]

True, but the Galaxy class is able to take on the heaviest warships of other races, it is able to serve adequatley in combat and participate in fleet actions. I find it unlikely they gave the ship these abilities by accident.

But as I said before, if you had a science vessel with a couple of add ons that made it the equal of a warship, that doesn't make it a warship itself.