Why did Nemesis lose to Insurrection???

[Bryan Moore]

I think from a story standpoint, Insurrection had fewer plot holes and bits of "Huh?" that were as major as those in Nemesis. In many ways, from a story standpoint, it was quintessential Trek: Trying to find a peaceful solution to someone's violent foul-up, turning to violence if needed, but staying true to the ideals of exploration, etc. Nemesis became sort of a big shoot'em up by the end, and turned off a lot of fans with that. In many ways I'd say Insurrection had the better story (yet failed as a movie), but Nemesis had more as a big budget movie and less of a long episode feel.

[Sionnach Glic]

Insurrection was just a normal Trek episode stretched out into film length. Nemesis was just idiocy.

[Tyyr]

Insurrection was just a normal Trek episode stretched out into film length. Nemesis was just idiocy.

Yep.

I was rooting for Starfleet and the Sona by the end of Insurrection.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ditto. Sorry, but miracle cure saving countless billions of people > desires of 300 Amish to keep their land.

[Tyyr]

Yeah, kinda hard to feel bad for the Baku.

Fairly hot older chick, "We want to keep our homes."
Picrad, "Did you miss the part about saving billions of lives? I think that's kinda worth at least considering ya know? It's a nice planet but we've got a few thousand if you want to keep on doing the Luddite thing."

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, that's where the whole thing falls apart. Most of the defenders of that action try to compare relocating the Baku to what happened to the Native Americans. Obviously, the analogy is flawed for several reasons. Most notably because it's quite possible for the UFP to relocate them to a virtualy identical planet, assist them in building their new settlement, and provide them with anything they need to get started. And all without a single one of them coming to any harm at all.
And in return, billions of people across the UFP basicaly get access to a miracle cure.

[Tyyr]

If it had just been someone wanting to move them in order to strip mine the place then the Baku are sympathetic. In fact you could even have a nice little subplot, say the Human admiral was bought off by a corporation. Or maybe it's just a convenience thing, for whatever reason the Baku's planet has this material in abundance and very easily accessible. It's needed in starship construction and after the Dominion war Starfleet needs all of it that they can get. They could get it elsewhere, but strip mining (and making theplace unlivable) the Baku planet would allow them to double or triple the haul of this material.

As is the Baku just look like selfish hippy pricks.

[Mikey]

The problem arises in the fact that the Ba'ku were never given the opportunity to choose. Who knows? They might have said, "Advance medical science for the entire quadrant by degrees of magnitude? Sure, we'll move!"

The problem on the other side is that they were being removed from their home, and from its innate benefits, for an unknown advance in medical science. The radiation might have been un-duplicatable, a/o of a finite amount once harvested. There was no indication that it would engender a self-sustaining science.

Finally, the film went to the device of "we'll harvest the radiation while killing people" in order to clarify right and wrong, and it just felt contrived.

[Praeothmin]

The problem arises in the fact that the Ba'ku were never given the opportunity to choose. Who knows? They might have said, "Advance medical science for the entire quadrant by degrees of magnitude? Sure, we'll move!"

The problem on the other side is that they were being removed from their home, and from its innate benefits, for an unknown advance in medical science. The radiation might have been un-duplicatable, a/o of a finite amount once harvested. There was no indication that it would engender a self-sustaining science.

Finally, the film went to the device of "we'll harvest the radiation while killing people" in order to clarify right and wrong, and it just felt contrived.

Which is why, to me, there are as many plotholes in Insurrection then in Nemesis.
The super-advanced aliens the go back to nature?
Ridiculous. Technology isn't bad if you use it correctly.
Think of all the medical advances we wouldn't have if it weren't for advances in Technology.

"We are only 300, but we will fight to stay here, even if it means killing millions by keeping the radiations to ourselves".
I'd say Technology's not what's bad here.

Data as a flotation device... Man, this is one of the stupidest moments I've ever seen in Trek.
"Yeah, Starfleet figured, you know, in case the ship we're on gets damaged, and we crashland on a planet, in a body of water, I could be used as a flotation device to save... hum... 3 or 4 people out of the entire crew... Useful, isn't it?"


Worf going through puberty again?
Ridiculous...

Talking about Deanna's boobs firming up?
Hum... Well, I guess my only complaint is that we don't see how firm they are...

Anyways, to Insurrection is a boring, badly written two hour long episode of Trek.
At least, in Nemesis, there's a sweep ship battle scene...

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, their whole thing is like if humanity had decided to go back to the medieval times after a hypthetical nuclear war. It's just plain dumb.

[Nickswitz]

I liked the music for Insurrection better.

[LaughingCheese]

Nemesis was just idiocy.

Ouch. I don't think I'd call it that.

[Coalition]

Nemesis was just idiocy.

How shall we list the stupidity:

1) Picard has promoted the Prime Directive for his whole life, but on the planet he drives recklessly in a dune buggy and gets into a shoot-out with the locals (instead of, say, waiting until after the ion storm had arrived and left)

2) Shinzon is dying, but he makes Picard wait for over a day for no reason

3) They promised a fleet battle, but never delivered

Or go with Mike Wong's page.

[LaughingCheese]

Nemesis was just idiocy.

Ouch. I don't think I'd call it that.

Nemesis was just idiocy.

How shall we list the stupidity:

1) Picard has promoted the Prime Directive for his whole life, but on the planet he drives recklessly in a dune buggy and gets into a shoot-out with the locals (instead of, say, waiting until after the ion storm had arrived and left)

2) Shinzon is dying, but he makes Picard wait for over a day for no reason

3) They promised a fleet battle, but never delivered

Or go with Mike Wong's page.

Please, don't remind me of the dune buggy scene. I hated that. Wheeled vehicles in the 24th century??????

Oh ya, I was pretty peeved about the fleet battle too. Although, I think that can be slightly forgiven; I at least thought it was kind of Trek tradition to have a single ship-to-ship battle for the films climax.

I just noticed the posts above mine, which answered my question.

EDIT: Wow, hard to disagree (read: impossible ) with that. Really too bad. Wished they'd tried harder and show the franchise some respect.

[Coalition]

1) Picard has promoted the Prime Directive for his whole life, but on the planet he drives recklessly in a dune buggy and gets into a shoot-out with the locals (instead of, say, waiting until after the ion storm had arrived and left)

Please, don't remind me of the dune buggy scene. I hated that. Wheeled vehicles in the 24th century??????

If you accept their limitations, wheeled vehicles can be useful. Compared to hover vehicles they have lower power requirements, lower emissions, better ground traction in case they hit something. With lower power requirement, the same battery will last longer on wheeled vehicle, giving it more range, more available power (for more toys) or you could even make the battery smaller, giving you a smaller profile (and needing less resources to make).

Of course, you are limited in terrain options (no water), and certain rough areas become impassable, but there are always tradeoffs.


It is like the handgrip in Insurrection that Riker used. For detailed maneuvers it is useless, but if you want the ship to go up and left you just move the stick instead of spending several seconds calling out instructions. If you are under fire, those seconds spent giving orders could mean coming out second in a 1 on 1 fight.