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Mikey wrote:

Bryan Moore wrote:But I don't think the writers ever really intended these folks to be more than 1D at best. You're looking at hired thugs, but imagine an army full of these men!

I'm not sure. There was already a template for augmented humans, and they were definitely deeper. Even the underlings from "Space Seed"/TWOK had dimension.

Except for Joachim in TWOK... not really. At least I didn't see any real depth with them.

Not everyone can be a Khan.

At the very least, he wasn't simply a less-powerful carbon copy of Khan - he seemed to be ruled more by logic than emotion than Khan, and wasn't afraid to tell Khan so.

The novelization of TWOK made Joaquim seem even more "deep" if you will. It portrays him as a person conflicted between following Khan and realizing how wrong he was for doing so and how evil Khan had become. Great stuff!

Bryan Moore wrote:The novelization of TWOK made Joaquim seem even more "deep" if you will. It portrays him as a person conflicted between following Khan and realizing how wrong he was for doing so and how evil Khan had become. Great stuff!

The TWOK novel is still one of my favourite trek novels. Its smaller than some, but it adds in so much detail, yet still remains true to the plot.

That book very literally single-handedly changed my general distaste for movie novelizations.

Aye, a surprisingly good book.

I've never read it. Is it worth tracking down a copy???

Mark wrote:I've never read it. Is it worth tracking down a copy???

Yes. I also have it and love it.

Cool......I'll look at the used bookstore.

Aye, keep an eye out for it. It's quite good.

Mark wrote:Excellent point. Even Vulcans, whom throughout the rest of the franchise I've found to be among the most interesting and complex characters around were completely without depth in Ent. Sad, very sad.

Wait wait wait, you think that Vulcans were without depth in ENT because they were showed as arrogant and had flaws instead of the super humans they were before? o.o

I personally liked the Augments but I do wonder why no other races use them.

Mikey wrote:IDK. Their 1-D nature really turned me off to them. Khan was a great antagonist because of that degree of wit and intellect, not despite it.

What'd Khan do that was so smart? I always thought he was kind of a dumbass personally. But I've only seen Wrath of Khan with him in it.

Same here. I never thought he was that impressive.

A genius wouldnt forget the Z axis...

I think we had the whole Z axis argument before. A guy who is not an experienced naval commander, whose entire command has been messed up, who has been goaded by Kirk and whose (possible) son has been killed is not going to make the smartest tactical decisions.

And Khan showed considerable intelligence both in Space Seed and TWOK. He took over Enterprise in Space Seed and was only defeated by the woman whose loyalties wavered. He conquered Reliant and came close to wiping out Enterprise, and later stole Genesis.

And let us not forget that Khan's superior intellect allowed his people to survive for some fifteen years in amazingly hostile conditions.

Katefan makes good points... but the "wit and intellect" to which I referred was supposed to mean the repartee he had with Kirk in TOS: "Space Seed," etc. His banter, his character flaws like arrogance and disdain, his erudite knowledge, etc., all made him interesting to watch - all without ever referencing his success as a villain.