Picard's Worst Decision

[Mikey]

Speaking of Picard's decisions the one that struck me as particularly stupid was the one from "Where silence has lease". When Nagilum states that he will kill third to half of the ship's crew Picard decides to thwart his plan by...destroying the Enterprise. I literally laughed out loud when I heard him say that. After Pulaski states "Isn't that a bit like killing the patient to stop the disease" Riker responds that "It's better then doing nothing."
LOOOOOOOOOOOL!
How exactly is it better Riker? Half of crew dead vs Entire crew dead+ship destroyed.
I don't know if you could call it one of the worst decisions since in the end all ends well, if only due to Nagilum demonstrating more respect for human life than Picard, but it certainly was stupid.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I had always assumed that Picard was playing poker with Nagilum - maybe a bad decision in another way, but I never felt that he was doing anything but playing a perverse sort of game of chicken.

[Bryan Moore]

In "Descent," sending all but a handful of people to look for Data, thus leaving a skeleton crew on the ship seemed like a poor choice, what with the Borg ship hovering around.

[Mikey]

Was the number of people left aboard mentioned specifically? With a crew that size, you could have a large search detail AND a large contingent left aboard.

[Bryan Moore]

Was the number of people left aboard mentioned specifically? With a crew that size, you could have a large search detail AND a large contingent left aboard.

It was specifically mentioned in Crusher's log that a "Skeleton crew" was left on board. If an ensign in science colors was her tactical officer and the lieutenant played by James Sloyan was essentially her first officer, she was clearly shorthanded.

[kostmayer]

I don't remember James Sloyan in that episode. One of those great actors who pops up all over the place on tv.

[Mikey]

Was the number of people left aboard mentioned specifically? With a crew that size, you could have a large search detail AND a large contingent left aboard.

It was specifically mentioned in Crusher's log that a "Skeleton crew" was left on board. If an ensign in science colors was her tactical officer and the lieutenant played by James Sloyan was essentially her first officer, she was clearly shorthanded.

Alrighty then. Yep, in that case, it was a pretty bad decision.

[Bryan Moore]

I don't remember James Sloyan in that episode. One of those great actors who pops up all over the place on tv.

Correction, James Horan. Apologies. Not the guy who played Mora/Jetrel... the guy who previously had played Jo'Bril in "Suspicions" Sorry for the confusion. Horan had also been in a ton of bit roles on every imaginable series.

[Deepcrush]

With the Baku it doesn't matter what benefits are gained. The Baku aren't just losing their world but their lives and its all for nothing. That what if comment was just not worthy of the problem. You aren't just taking a home but a whole world and killing of the last of a race. It would be someone taking your home, kidnapping your family, destroying your home and then watching you die off. Genocide, no matter what sugar toppings it has is still the same. The federation isn't there JUST to protect the whole of federation lifestyle but the PERSONAL rights of EVERYONE inside of federation space. Starfleet is a protective service, not a conquering army. With as much as I would like to see Starfleet built like an empire that's just not the case. Having the power to do something isn't the only means of right and wrong. Sometimes its having the power to stop a wrong, that makes you strong. The power to help someone when no one else will. Stand up for what is right and proper. To care for those around you without the need to be paid for it. A nation must do what is right, not just what is wanted. The people of the federation don't need the life extension, they live well enough without it. They do however need the honor and loyalty that comes with the service of Starfleet and this is something that they would lose should they begin to act in such a manner. Life spans, money and space doesn't make a nation great. Greatness only comes from the people of the nation and how they live out their lives, long or short. True power would be from the federation investing as much time as it takes to learn the properties that make up the briers patch. Power to protect the true rights of all people involved in the matter. Its made by substance in one form or another which means it can be remade. Maybe not now, maybe not in the near future, but it can and should be done. Far better to reproduce the effect then to burn out your only known source. All in all everything about the topic is faulted. The prime directive, federation law and the ability for Starfleet personnel to determine the best course of action from the field instead of waiting for someone back at HQ to make up a poor answer without any facts and without any know how to the problem. If you want to see how well such thinking works then look at the USA as of now. The federation was looking for a fast profit without care of those who would be harmed by it. This movie reinforces the flaws of the PD. Its an idea founded in stupidity even on its best day.

[Captain Seafort]

Deep, will you please use paragraphs. These huge walls of text you're so fond of hurt my eyes and are extremely difficult to read.

With the Baku it doesn't matter what benefits are gained. The Baku aren't just losing their world but their lives and its all for nothing.

They're not losing their lives - they're being moved to another world so they don't lose their lives. At the cost of this relocation of just 600 people, billions would have benefited from a medical revolution.

That what if comment was just not worthy of the problem. You aren't just taking a home but a whole world and killing of the last of a race. It would be someone taking your home, kidnapping your family, destroying your home and then watching you die off. Genocide, no matter what sugar toppings it has is still the same.

Bollocks. It's the interstellar equivalent of a compulsory purchase order. The only slight problem have with it is the method - since the Ba'ku have extensive knowledge of advanced technology (luddite tendencies aside) the Feds could have simply walked in, told them to pack, and moved them out. However, the method chosen significantly reduced the chances of resistence, and hence the chances of Fed or Ba'ku casualties.

The federation isn't there JUST to protect the whole of federation lifestyle but the PERSONAL rights of EVERYONE inside of federation space. Starfleet is a protective service, not a conquering army.

Starfleet's first duty is to act to protect the best interests of Federation citizens. In this case that means securing the technobabble radiation in order to revolutionise medicine

With as much as I would like to see Starfleet built like an empire that's just not the case. Having the power to do something isn't the only means of right and wrong. Sometimes its having the power to stop a wrong, that makes you strong. The power to help someone when no one else will. Stand up for what is right and proper. To care for those around you without the need to be paid for it. A nation must do what is right, not just what is wanted.

The Feds primary responsibility is to it's own citizens. Humanitarian operations are all well and good, and are to be lauded, but when such actions come at a significant cost to the bulk of the Fed population, the needs of the Feds' own citizens must come first.

The people of the federation don't need the life extension, they live well enough without it.

By that logic you could say that citizens of modern, western countries live "well enough", and so all research into fighting cancer, AIDS, heart disease, etc, should be stopped.

They do however need the honor and loyalty that comes with the service of Starfleet and this is something that they would lose should they begin to act in such a manner. Life spans, money and space doesn't make a nation great. Greatness only comes from the people of the nation and how they live out their lives, long or short.

If the Federation adopted such a policy it would be entitled to have it written on it's gravestone. If, however, it valued its long-term survival it would be well advised to ensure that its officers acted in the best interests of the nation, rather than against them as Picard and his crew did.

True power would be from the federation investing as much time as it takes to learn the properties that make up the briers patch. Power to protect the true rights of all people involved in the matter. Its made by substance in one form or another which means it can be remade. Maybe not now, maybe not in the near future, but it can and should be done. Far better to reproduce the effect then to burn out your only known source.

They did put extensive research by the best minds in the Federation into finding alternatives to the Son'a harvesting method. None was found - it was specifically stated that the only way to reap the benefits of the radiation was to harvest it in the manner depicted.

[Deepcrush]

Deep, will you please use paragraphs. These huge walls of text you're so fond of hurt my eyes and are extremely difficult to read.

So sorry, just a weird habit.

They're not losing their lives - they're being moved to another world so they don't lose their lives. At the cost of this relocation of just 600 people, billions would have benefited from a medical revolution.

When people attach themselves to land then taking it away can kill them. I breaks down their will to live and grow. It maybe easy for you to give up what you care for but for most people it isn't. The mistake of forgeting the connection between land and people has cost england a number of wars in the past. 3 of them here in North America alone. Forced relocation is wrong unless it is for the safety of those being moved, period.

Bollocks. It's the interstellar equivalent of a compulsory purchase order. The only slight problem have with it is the method - since the Ba'ku have extensive knowledge of advanced technology (luddite tendencies aside) the Feds could have simply walked in, told them to pack, and moved them out. However, the method chosen significantly reduced the chances of resistence, and hence the chances of Fed or Ba'ku casualties.

Have you ever had someone take your home in the name of making other people happy? I have, I can remember very well. What Purchase did anyone give to the Baku for stealing their home? A holoship? What happens when some of them hear you've burnt their homeworld to a crisp? Look what happened to the Sona. They got pissed just... a little bit maybe. People die when things like this happen. Someone will get mad and then someone will get killed. If you want to understand resistence, go threaten someones home. You might just leave with a little more understanding to something that seems out of your arena.

Starfleet's first duty is to act to protect the best interests of Federation citizens. In this case that means securing the technobabble radiation in order to revolutionise medicine

You forget that Starfleet's first duty is to up hold the law of the Federation. They can spend 20 years building the GCS but one year is to much time to work on something that could help the whole federation. This is crap. Why didn't they just ask the Baku? Tell them that billions of lives could be saved and give them the chance. This was something that no one did until it was to late and the people in question were already upset.

The Feds primary responsibility is to it's own citizens. Humanitarian operations are all well and good, and are to be lauded, but when such actions come at a significant cost to the bulk of the Fed population, the needs of the Feds' own citizens must come first.

Need...? So you're saying that the UFP would not survive without this? Some how it just doesn't sound true to me...

By that logic you could say that citizens of modern, western countries live "well enough", and so all research into fighting cancer, AIDS, heart disease, etc, should be stopped

Please don't get stupid on my now, I have to much respect for you. Notice the difference here... Research vs thieft, kidnapping, forced relocation and destruction of a races homeworld to top it off with a bang. Tell me you understand the flaw in your last point.

I said...

They do however need the honor and loyalty that comes with the service of Starfleet and this is something that they would lose should they begin to act in such a manner. Life spans, money and space doesn't make a nation great. Greatness only comes from the people of the nation and how they live out their lives, long or short.

You said...

If the Federation adopted such a policy it would be entitled to have it written on it's gravestone. If, however, it valued its long-term survival it would be well advised to ensure that its officers acted in the best interests of the nation, rather than against them as Picard and his crew did.

This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've read since joining this site. No offense seafort, it just is. I hope it is just under worded and some parts have been left out for time sake. Kirk also believed in honor and loyalty to Starfleet. He often broke the rules to act in what way he saw best. I would dare you to say that Kirk was killing the UFP.

They did put extensive research by the best minds in the Federation into finding alternatives to the Son'a harvesting method. None was found - it was specifically stated that the only way to reap the benefits of the radiation was to harvest it in the manner depicted.

The best minds? Again in less then a year they choose to destroy a world rather then try to work out the problem. Think of all the things that would never come if you just gave up because something looked impossible.

Flying...
A flat world... if you sail to far you'll fall off!
Sail around the world... so much for falling off.
Free speech...
Blood transfusions...
Building skyscrapers...
Space ships...

To say something is impossible is a cowards way of quiting without feeling bad about being a failure. The Federation was in a rush because they had talked themselves out of the Prime Directive. Again only proving how useless it was.

[Captain Seafort]

When people attach themselves to land then taking it away can kill them. I breaks down their will to live and grow. It maybe easy for you to give up what you care for but for most people it isn't. The mistake of forgeting the connection between land and people has cost england a number of wars in the past. 3 of them here in North America alone. Forced relocation is wrong unless it is for the safety of those being moved, period.

So, the fact that 600 people don't want to move is a reason for depriving billions of the medical benefits of harvesting the radiation? Moreover, the forced relocation was for the safety of the Ba'ku, just as in the case of the Pacific islanders moved prior to the Bikini Atoll tests.

Have you ever had someone take your home in the name of making other people happy? I have, I can remember very well. What Purchase did anyone give to the Baku for stealing their home? A holoship?

An entire planet - they weren't being chucked out onto the street, but having their entire relocated culture relocated to a similar world, at Federation expense.

What happens when some of them hear you've burnt their homeworld to a crisp? Look what happened to the Sona. They got pissed just... a little bit maybe. People die when things like this happen. Someone will get mad and then someone will get killed. If you want to understand resistence, go threaten someones home. You might just leave with a little more understanding to something that seems out of your arena.

So, again, because a few hundred Ba'ku might get huffy, that's a reason to deny billions the health benefits of harvesting the radiation?

You forget that Starfleet's first duty is to up hold the law of the Federation. They can spend 20 years building the GCS but one year is to much time to work on something that could help the whole federation. This is crap. Why didn't they just ask the Baku? Tell them that billions of lives could be saved and give them the chance. This was something that no one did until it was to late and the people in question were already upset.

Wrong - Starfleet is the Federation's military, not its police force. You also don't seem to understand the nature of government - its purpose is not to ask every single individual who might be affected whether or not they want to do something. Its purpose is to determine which course of action grants the greatest good to the greatest number of its population and carry it out. In the case of the Ba'ku, compensation was provided (as is right) in the form of the Federation providing a replacement planet for them.

Need...? So you're saying that the UFP would not survive without this? Some how it just doesn't sound true to me...

Strawman. I said "a significant cost to the bulk of the Fed population" ie, the loss of the revolution in medicine that the radiation would have provided.

Please don't get stupid on my now, I have to much respect for you. Notice the difference here... Research vs thieft, kidnapping, forced relocation and destruction of a races homeworld to top it off with a bang. Tell me you understand the flaw in your last point.

You said:

The people of the federation don't need the life extension, they live well enough without it.

By the logic inherent in that post, my analogy to halting all medical research is valid.

This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've read since joining this site. No offense seafort, it just is. I hope it is just under worded and some parts have been left out for time sake. Kirk also believed in honor and loyalty to Starfleet. He often broke the rules to act in what way he saw best. I would dare you to say that Kirk was killing the UFP.

You expressed the opinion that being nice people is to be given a higher priority than the long-term survival of a civilisation. I pointed out the inevitable consequence of that approach.

The best minds? Again in less then a year they choose to destroy a world rather then try to work out the problem. Think of all the things that would never come if you just gave up because something looked impossible.

You assume that the Federation gave up because they ran out of patient. Given that Dougherty categorically stated in response to Picard's inquiry about an alternative harvesting method that "there isn't", I find it more likely that they discovered something about the rings that made them impossible to harvest without destroying the planet's atmosphere.

To say something is impossible is a cowards way of quiting without feeling bad about being a failure. The Federation was in a rush because they had talked themselves out of the Prime Directive. Again only proving how useless it was.

See above. If they were in such a rush, why didn't they take the Son'a approch to start with, rather than expend time and effort looking for an alternative?

[Deepcrush]

So, the fact that 600 people don't want to move is a reason for depriving billions of the medical benefits of harvesting the radiation? Moreover, the forced relocation was for the safety of the Ba'ku, just as in the case of the Pacific islanders moved prior to the Bikini Atoll tests.

And was taking away someone's home right? Numbers mean nothing, it is right or wrong. That simple. You're looking to put a gray area over it all.

An entire planet - they weren't being chucked out onto the street, but having their entire relocated culture relocated to a similar world, at Federation expense.

But they already had a planet, a pretty nice one at that. How similar could it be? There are a number of things about that planet that could never be replaced.

So, again, because a few hundred Ba'ku might get huffy, that's a reason to deny billions the health benefits of harvesting the radiation?

So when does it become wrong in your eyes? There were a few huffy people in the new england colonies a short while back. Can you remember how that ended?

Wrong - Starfleet is the Federation's military, not its police force. You also don't seem to understand the nature of government - its purpose is not to ask every single individual who might be affected whether or not they want to do something. Its purpose is to determine which course of action grants the greatest good to the greatest number of its population and carry it out. In the case of the Ba'ku, compensation was provided (as is right) in the form of the Federation providing a replacement planet for them.

Step one - shove your foot in your mouth.
Step two - watch all of star trek over again!
Step three - pull foot out of your mouth.
Step four - try again.

Starfleet is science, construction, defense, diplomatic, medical, colonization and exploration.

Many of these go against my own views of what I feel starfleet should be. But, none the less, thats just what it is. Also again you can't replace the Baku world, if you could then you wouldn't need theirs. There can be no payment to match the loss.

Strawman. I said "a significant cost to the bulk of the Fed population" ie, the loss of the revolution in medicine that the radiation would have provided.

First off let me say that I have no idea what "Strawman" means unless your talking about the guy who sells hayseed to my father.

Second. What cost? Cost is when you have something and lose it. They didn't have the technobabble stuff to begin with. There was no cost to it.

By the logic inherent in that post, my analogy to halting all medical research is valid.

And so would be the war in iraq.
Your view of "inherent logic" is about as proper as me saying cuba will rule the world. What effect would one research have on a thousand others? You're just reaching for a horse crap life line that isn't there. Get over it.

You expressed the opinion that being nice people is to be given a higher priority than the long-term survival of a civilisation. I pointed out the inevitable consequence of that approach.

You're comments are getting dumber by the line. You should think about taking a day off. I take it that you know nothing of honor then. Honor isn't always nice. Honor is about right and wrong. You should think about learning it. I'm not always a nice guy, but I do have a strong sense of honor. Just like my father before me. I do what is right, even if I don't like the idea of it.

You assume that the Federation gave up because they ran out of patient. Given that Dougherty categorically stated in response to Picard's inquiry about an alternative harvesting method that "there isn't", I find it more likely that they discovered something about the rings that made them impossible to harvest without destroying the planet's atmosphere.

And you trust that someone with less forsight then Janeway would be a good source? Cures aren't overnight. They take time. Years, decades, centuries even.

See above. If they were in such a rush, why didn't they take the Son'a approch to start with, rather than expend time and effort looking for an alternative?

Because like most people with crime, they needed to atleast try and justify what they have done. No matter how much of a load it is. Picard asked for time and they wouldn't wait even 24 hours for one last look. The Fed council broke down after a transmission from Riker. Thats all it took to end their plans. As soon as someone forced them to look at the problem they backed down.

[Captain Seafort]

And was taking away someone's home right? Numbers mean nothing, it is right or wrong. That simple. You're looking to put a gray area over it all.

Numbers mean everything. On the one hand you have a minor inconveniance to 600 people. On the other you have health benefits to billions. If you can't see that the harm done is vastly outweighed by the good, then you're a brain-dead idiot.

But they already had a planet, a pretty nice one at that. How similar could it be? There are a number of things about that planet that could never be replaced.

Most notably the radiation, which is what the Federation was after. How is "they liked their planet" an argument in favour of depriving billions of the health benefits of that radiation.

So when does it become wrong in your eyes? There were a few huffy people in the new england colonies a short while back. Can you remember how that ended?

Yes - they were getting a pasting until the French showed up to save their hides.

Step one - shove your foot in your mouth.
Step two - watch all of star trek over again!
Step three - pull foot out of your mouth.
Step four - try again.

You've completed step one throughilly and repeatedly. Now try the rest.

Many of these go against my own views of what I feel starfleet should be. But, none the less, thats just what it is. Also again you can't replace the Baku world, if you could then you wouldn't need theirs. There can be no payment to match the loss.

I never said compensation would fill every possible detail of the Ba'ku's demands. They are, however, only 600 people, whereas as Dougherty said, the harvesting would benefit billions. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

First off let me say that I have no idea what "Strawman" means unless your talking about the guy who sells hayseed to my father.

A "strawman" is a type of logical fallacy - you were misrepresenting my argument in an attempt to make it easer to argue against.

Second. What cost? Cost is when you have something and lose it. They didn't have the technobabble stuff to begin with. There was no cost to it.

Cost is not merely about "having something and then losing it", but also about losing predicted gains. For example, when companies fail to obtain a particular contract, that failure is described as costing them such-and-such amount of profit.

I take it that you know nothing of honor then. Honor isn't always nice. Honor is about right and wrong. You should think about learning it. I'm not always a nice guy, but I do have a strong sense of honor. Just like my father before me. I do what is right, even if I don't like the idea of it.

They why are you opposing my argument? In this case, what is "right" can be determined by the principle of least harm versus most gain. The harm done to the Ba'ku is very limited - their lives were never at risk, neither was their culture. The gain to billions of Federation citizens, on the other hand, was great.

Because like most people with crime, they needed to atleast try and justify what they have done. No matter how much of a load it is. Picard asked for time and they wouldn't wait even 24 hours for one last look. The Fed council broke down after a transmission from Riker. Thats all it took to end their plans. As soon as someone forced them to look at the problem they backed down.

You put the cart before the horse, and assume that a crime occured before looking for excuses why the facts don't fit your opinion. If they looked to commit a crime, why go to such lengths to preserve the Ba'ku culture through detailed observations and preparation of a transplant site for them? Why not simply beam them out, sedate them, transport them to a random planet, and harvest the radiation? Far quicker, far simpler, and scant chance that anyone would ever be the wiser.

[Mikey]

As an outside observer to your discussion, all I can add is that the metaphasic radiation of the Ba'ku planet wouldn't actually be helping to solve a defned health problem, rather it would be for the "convenience" use of already healthy - but naturally old - people.

However, I see both the logic in Seafort's argument and the humanity in Deep's. But if you're going to write back and say that natural deat by old age IS in fact a health problem, don't bother - I won't listen to that kind of drek.

[Deepcrush]

First off, this debate has ended my respect for you. Its a sad day that I end up feeling like I'm talking to a 2 year old on a forum that I would expect far more from. Some such remarks I would expect from some but not you.

On the one hand you have a minor inconveniance to 600 people. On the other you have health benefits to billions. If you can't see that the harm done is vastly outweighed by the good, then you're a brain-dead idiot.

I know the numbers but its about right and wrong. You're not one who should be throwing about the brain-dead line from what you've shown here.

Most notably the radiation, which is what the Federation was after. How is "they liked their planet" an argument in favour of depriving billions of the health benefits of that radiation.

What is it that gives you the right to take it away?

Yes - they were getting a pasting until the French showed up to save their hides.

WRONG! You are such a sad little boy. Fighting lasted until 1815 when England gave up trying to take back the US. It was also American Colonists who saved England during the Seven Years War. I think this one counted as the true first world war but thats another topic. Englands 3 to 1 victory rate in open field meant nothing by the end. Your troops were afraid to even leave the cities you raped. Ambush companies beat on you like everyone beats on the french. In the end, a few months help from france was nothing. They cost us as much if not more then they gained for us. If not for them the treaty would have been signed several years earlier. They delayed the ending of the war for their own needs against England to draw off your forces to fight us instead of them.

You've completed step one throughilly and repeatedly. Now try the rest.

Again, you're still nothing more that a sad little thing. Now, be a good boy and go watch ST-VI again. Conference scene.

I never said compensation would fill every possible detail of the Ba'ku's demands. They are, however, only 600 people, whereas as Dougherty said, the harvesting would benefit billions. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

But, it isn't a need. Its a want. You seem unable or unwilling to understand this part of the problem.

A "strawman" is a type of logical fallacy - you were misrepresenting my argument in an attempt to make it easer to argue against.

Seeing how your argument is mostly though not totally crap anyways. Why would I need to misrepresent anything? You said "Need" but the federation does not "Need" this. It "Wants" this. There is a huge jump between the two which seems to be more then your mind can handle. That or you were born golden spoon. I'm not sure which.

Cost is not merely about "having something and then losing it", but also about losing predicted gains. For example, when companies fail to obtain a particular contract, that failure is described as costing them such-and-such amount of profit.

Companies need money to survive. The federation did not need this to survive. Are you starting to defog yet?

They why are you opposing my argument? In this case, what is "right" can be determined by the principle of least harm versus most gain. The harm done to the Ba'ku is very limited - their lives were never at risk, neither was their culture. The gain to billions of Federation citizens, on the other hand, was great.

Because no matter how much sugar you try to put on it, in the end its still a load of bull. Its not "Right", its just good for the big guy and muck the little guy. Harm should only be if there is no other choice but in the end there were other choices. Many other choices. No one cared to work on them. I am opposing your argument because you fail to properly judge right and wrong. If it were as simple as "We take what we want" then in all likely hood I would have sided with you.

You put the cart before the horse, and assume that a crime occured before looking for excuses why the facts don't fit your opinion. If they looked to commit a crime, why go to such lengths to preserve the Ba'ku culture through detailed observations and preparation of a transplant site for them? Why not simply beam them out, sedate them, transport them to a random planet, and harvest the radiation? Far quicker, far simpler, and scant chance that anyone would ever be the wiser.

What facts don't fit my opinion? Right and Wrong are not up for opinion. 2 +2 doesn't equal 21, never has, never will and if someone disagrees then you should just shoot them on the spot and save the gene pool some future trouble. The UFP has laws that decide right and wrong. Opinion from anyone is meaningless to said standard. You also forget who you are dealing with. This is the Federation. They can't do anything without being able to justify for later hindsight. These people are about a posey as Louis!