Borg vs KE (again)

[Deepcrush]

I have, not in real life, but in historical video of war. They get shot and just drop where they stood.

As I stated before, though you were to limp to look for it, when a bullet goes through a person normally they just fall fluid where they stand. Its when there is something to block the round such as bone or armor that the effects are shown.

I realize that everything on tv isn't always highly accurate, but the mythbusters don't just pull stuff out of their ass. They are on the Discovery channel, a station dedicated to science and fact, and they not only do their best to abide by the scientific process (up till they blow stuff up for the fun), but when they goof up and get called on it, they admit it (or retest it to see). They did this twice, had their own gun experts, and did just about everything imaginable to cause their human stand in to go flying from a bullet. It didn't work. I'll take their well designed testing over your word.

Since I've seen it happen, the opinion of someone like you is of little concern to me.

I'm willing to let it live like this. Those of us who have seen it or had it happen, know how it happens. Those who don't, simply don't. That's the end of this story as far as I care to see it. If any of you wish to prove to me I didn't watch my friend fly, then feel free to try. Otherwise you've all done nothing but troll a thread so go fuck off.

[Mikey]

Yes, and those were all guns that fired a fifty cal round.

I think someone mentioned a M2 specifically... if not, the reference to mounted vs. man-pack should have made that distinction clear. Those other guns all fire .50 cal rounds, but are patently not the guns that were being discussed.

Try again. Same round, more or less same muzzle velocity, same energy.

I'm no firearms expert, so this is an earnest question: are you sure? Just because they're the same caliber doesn't mean that they're the same size round. Only if all those other pieces are designated for the .50 BMG specifically will they be the same round.

I have no interest in doing the math on this one, so I let you have it.

The extent of the math involved is this: reaction minus friction < action. Not too hard. Add in the center of moment for the guy who isn't prone and it gets more complicated, but balances even further away from being equal.

I severely doubt the amount of force needed to pick a man up and throw him could be safely and repeatedly absorbed by the human shoulder, but again I have to give this one as the math and medical studies I'd have to trudge through to be able to say it is or is not so is well beyond the effort I want to give for an online debate.

And yet, knockback is a well-documented phenomenon, and so is firing from the shoulder. Real world trumps what you (or I) may doubt.

when a bullet goes through a person normally they just fall fluid where they stand. Its when there is something to block the round such as bone or armor that the effects are shown.

I don't know if FMJ rounds are common for the BMG round or similar rounds; but even so, how common can it be for even a FMJ round to completely penetrate a human body with no deformation (which would indicate some transfer of energy?)

[Deepcrush]

I don't know if FMJ rounds are common for the BMG round or similar rounds; but even so, how common can it be for even a FMJ round to completely penetrate a human body with no deformation (which would indicate some transfer of energy?)

If a 7.62 round makes no contact with solid matter (bone or armor) it will pass through several men with little trouble. Even if it hits bone, a 7.62 can go through one person and still be lethal to another.

JHP rounds are another matter as they rarely go through and lose velocity rather quickly upon impact.

[Mikey]

Obviously, JHP, controlled expansion (if they were legal,) and fragmenting rounds (if cops used guns that big) would be a different story - that's why I mentioned my question as to the use of FMJ rounds for the .50BMG. And I understand that even a 7.62 FMJ round will fully penetrate a body if it makes no contact with anything at all on the way through. My point was that even a spleen, kidney, or ganglion will deform a bullet somewhat, and thereby cause the bullet to transfer its energy. The case of a bullet passing through a human body without transferring any energy is possible, but so unlikely as to be unnecessary to discuss.

[Deepcrush]

Obviously, JHP, controlled expansion (if they were legal,) and fragmenting rounds (if cops used guns that big) would be a different story - that's why I mentioned my question as to the use of FMJ rounds for the .50BMG. And I understand that even a 7.62 FMJ round will fully penetrate a body if it makes no contact with anything at all on the way through. My point was that even a spleen, kidney, or ganglion will deform a bullet somewhat, and thereby cause the bullet to transfer its energy. The case of a bullet passing through a human body without transferring any energy is possible, but so unlikely as to be unnecessary to discuss.

Normally this just causes a ripple in the body, the round if FMJ will most often exit off its original course if only slightly. The amount of energy transfered depends on the round in use. Solid rounds don't really deform so they just go through, the man hit just falls over almost like he's drunk, and the round just goes until it runs out of steam.

[Lighthawk]

This is once again just a useless debate. A bunch of nobodies complaining about things they don't understand. We should just block/lock these threads as its nothing but a troll spawning ground.

Ah here we go, the bit where Deep whines about people not agreeing with him, and throwing around accusations of trolling rather than debating the issue.

Lighthawk, since you add nothing why do you even bother to show up?

I have to ask, how do you breath under the weight of such crushing hypocrisy? I have argued my point with universally accepted science and a documented experiment of the very subject being debated. You have argued your point with no proof at all other than your word. You my friend are the one adding nothing, and I won't ask why you show up, because I already know.

As I stated before, though you were to limp to look for it, when a bullet goes through a person normally they just fall fluid where they stand. Its when there is something to block the round such as bone or armor that the effects are shown.

This is what you asked for:

IF you've seen a person hit by such a round and not get knocked over, please tell us such.

And I gave you an answer to it. I have seen people shot in footage and they fall straight down dead, or fall forward due to running. I have yet to see any real world video recording of a person being shot and flying through the air from it. If you want to claim this happens you're going to have to do better than "because I saw it happen." You might as well be saying "I saw Elvis the other day, I have no proof of it at all, but I did."

Since I've seen it happen, the opinion of someone like you is of little concern to me.

Well your opinion means as little to me, and as that's all you have...

I'm willing to let it live like this. Those of us who have seen it or had it happen, know how it happens. Those who don't, simply don't. That's the end of this story as far as I care to see it. If any of you wish to prove to me I didn't watch my friend fly, then feel free to try. Otherwise you've all done nothing but troll a thread so go f**k off.

And here's the Deep classic: I'm done talking about things I can't prove so I'm going to make a big statement implying that there is nothing left to discuss.

Say what you will, but until you can provide proof, I'm going to believe what science has taught me. I'll take that over the word of someone who I doubt was in a proper environment to objectively observe all relevant data. I will make the distinction, I believe that you believe you saw this happen, but the type of situations in which such a thing normally happen are not exactly scientific testing grounds, and there are other possible explanations that could account for what you think you saw.

[Deepcrush]

Yeah Lighthawk, because who have dealt with these matters in real life must no less then you...

I get that the forum doesn't have troll rules but since its a subject clearly over your head, I don't have to care anymore. Go bother someone else, fuck your wife or kid or somehow else waste time. Either which way, not my problem.

[Lighthawk]

I think someone mentioned a M2 specifically... if not, the reference to mounted vs. man-pack should have made that distinction clear. Those other guns all fire .50 cal rounds, but are patently not the guns that were being discussed.

I thought the discussion was about hand held weapons throwing humans around, the .50 cal simply being the prime example since it's the big daddy of hand helds.

I'm no firearms expert, so this is an earnest question: are you sure? Just because they're the same caliber doesn't mean that they're the same size round. Only if all those other pieces are designated for the .50 BMG specifically will they be the same round.

Well I'm not either, so I suppose I can't say I'm sure. Still, the argument isn't simply limited to .50 cal rounds, but personal arms in general. I think this section of the debate is going afield of what I was debating and is straying into territory I should probably not be arguing based on my knowledge of it.

The extent of the math involved is this: reaction minus friction < action. Not too hard. Add in the center of moment for the guy who isn't prone and it gets more complicated, but balances even further away from being equal.

Well, do you know how much friction is involved? Cause I don't.

And yet, knockback is a well-documented phenomenon, and so is firing from the shoulder. Real world trumps what you (or I) may doubt.

Well documented where? I have yet to see anyone provide proof of any sort, no video, no links, not even a place I could go look. Where can I find these documented incidents, and I mean that in total earnest, no sarcasm. Someone point me in the right direction please.

[Lighthawk]

Yeah Lighthawk, because who have dealt with these matters in real life must no less then you...

I get that the forum doesn't have troll rules but since its a subject clearly over your head, I don't have to care anymore. Go bother someone else, f**k your wife or kid or somehow else waste time. Either which way, not my problem.

Oooo, a rolly eye smilie, how your scorn burns me. As for being over my head, I'm sorry your grasp of basic science is so limited, that your debating ability is so flawed, that your certainty in your infallibility is so complete, and that your inability to see your own hypocrisy is so overwhelming that every argument you get into on this forum ends with you making this claim to the other person in one form or another. If I'm bothering you, you're free to just not respond any time you wish, and then it really won't be your problem. You have nothing else to add to the debate, so you might as well bow out.

[Deepcrush]

How about this, come here and I show you the round live and we'll say fuck the armor. I've SEEN it happen, lived through it and buried a friend because of it. Can you say the same?

[Lighthawk]

How about this, come here and I show you the round live and we'll say f**k the armor. I've SEEN it happen, lived through it and buried a friend because of it. Can you say the same?

Of course not, it doesn't happen. Hard to see that which isn't so.

[Deepcrush]

Of course not, it doesn't happen. Hard to see that which isn't so.

If I ever meet you and disgrace the memory of my friend like that, ignore him and what happened to him, I'll kill you then, there and I won't give a shit if your kid is there to watch it.

[Lighthawk]

Of course not, it doesn't happen. Hard to see that which isn't so.

If I ever meet you and disgrace the memory of my friend like that, ignore him and what happened to him, I'll kill you then, there and I won't give a s**t if your kid is there to watch it.

First off, personal threats over an internet argument are just silly.

Second, I mean no disgrace for your friend, his death is unfortunate and I'm sorry for what pain that causes you, but it isn't proof of anything this debate has been about, not the way you keep stating it.

All you've said is "I've seen it." This isn't proof. People have seen bigfoot and UFOs too, and I believe they believe they have, but that doesn't make them right. The eye is not a camera and the brain is not film, many court cases have found eye witness testimony to be flawed. Stress and strong emotions have been shown to distort a person's perception of reality, and I can only imagine a gun fight is a pretty damn stressful event full of lots of strong emotions. Add in that it's generally a good idea to keep one's head down in a fire fight, and you have an event where eye witness testimony can easily be considered fairly shoddy.

If you want to believe that what you saw was exactly what you think it is and that there are no other possibilities that could explain it, that is your right to do so. But just because you believe it doesn't mean I have to agree with you, nor that I have to stop arguing because I believe otherwise. I will keep stating my opinion on this and any other matter, and I am not going to change my opinion without some form of proof that is more concrete than "I say it is so."

[Tsukiyumi]

Okay. Thread locked. PM's about the subject are encouraged.