Ship of the week: Negh’Var

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:12 am

It's quite possible that they're starting to realise just how badly outdated they are. It's quite likely that they'll scrap them sometime in the future.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:25 am

It's an interesting point but I'm not sure how useful that is honestly. We haven't seen many of them and the ones that we have seen like AGT no longer works since the E-D has been destroyed so it has been changed.

I think the sheer number of these ships implied in the past will ensure them some kind of future, even if it is along desolate borders. Besides, since I don't think they have the resources to do what Deepcrush has called for I don't believe they have the resources to replace the BoP within a reasonable time frame. The most likely scenario is a phase out with a new design but I would expect them to take a little while since it would require testing.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:28 am

Sounds good to me.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:53 am

You would think that the Dominion war would have shown them that they need a new design and that they would have one under way by the latter seasons of DS9. Ideally we should have seen a few test ships during the final battles.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:20 pm

You'd think that, but I don't think we got any indication of such prototypes.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:22 pm

Then again the Klingons are rather practical and the BoP did a pretty good job during the war. It ws ideally suit for bug fighting.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:08 pm

First, my numbers of build are coming from the DITL (not cannon but still a fair guess as far as I see it) and are factoring that most of the KDF fleet would be rebuilt of BoP. I doubt they are going to go by my reconstruction plan which would most likely slow them to about a hundred ships per year. BoBW2, "The Fleet" most likely being a sector fleet was said to be back up within the year. I didn't hear any voice saying it was going to be hard or a rush to do so. In fact, didn't Shelby say "don't worry". Klingon ships, more of note the cheap little BoP are small, again cheap and most likely very simple to build. Why would they be hard to build at a greater rate then SF ships which are hell for building purposes?

$100 rock you're a quick one, mommy must be proud. HAHAHAHAHA, no really that's just so darn cute. We needed more children in the forum, though now I feel old.

As to when have they rebuilt? From Ent to TOS, totally different ships. TOS to TNG, totally new ships. TNG to DS9, very big fleet with only a few of the old boys still around. Lets not forget that those old battle cruisers in that part of the Klingon fleet sent to attack the cardis still plowed the CU like everyone does the French.

As to Martok being a general and not a chancellor. For the Klingons the difference might not be as big as it is for the UFP. I also don't see Martok being as closed minded as many in the past. I would even say that he may be the future version of Gorkon. Worf talked about how many of the Klingons believed that they had been at peace for to long. True, however he didn't say most or majority. The word many leaves a lot of open room for sway. There's no way to know how many "many" is. The reconstruction plan I have for the KE has to be based off of what we know, or what we can guess within reason. After the Dominion War, I would say that "many" of those Klingons who were looking for a fight have had a good fill as of late.

If you haven't seen the 9th fleet in large scale battle then you haven't seen the show. I would advise you to go rent DS9, seasons 6 & 7. Both battles of chintoka and the battle of cardassia were very large matters of the war. Martok was also well known for his use of hit & run battles.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:35 pm

An interesting tangent I just thought of... judging by the extraordinary service lives of things like the D-7 type or the BoP type, is it possible that Klingon "update" philosophy is based on continuously fielding as full a fleet as possible, rather than always rushing out the latest design. It seems so to me, and certainly fits with what we know of the Klingon mindset. In other words, tehir concentration is not always on the msot rapid advancement, but on what can be done to keep a full-strength operable fleet up-to-date as much as possible while bringing out new designs only as much as time allows. It would also explain the hugely derivative nature of each new Klingon design we see.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:44 pm

As to when have they rebuilt? From Ent to TOS, totally different ships. TOS to TNG, totally new ships. TNG to DS9, very big fleet with only a few of the old boys still around.

Okay, lets examine this statement shall we.

First with the ENT-TOS era, the last time a Klingon design appears in Ent is The Augments in Season 4, set in 2154, both the Bird of Prey and D5 appear. The first time in TOS that we are shown a Klingon design is with the "D7" which first appears in Elaan of Troyuis, Season 3 set in 2268. An interesting side note The D5 Cruiser seen in Enterprise was still in at least limited Combat use within Kang's life since he commanded one, presumably before commanding this D7. So that is a break between the two of 114 years, an abundant amount of time from which to rebuild.

Now then TOS-TNG, this is slightly different because we have movies to consider as well. The last time a Klingon Vessel is seen in TOS is Day of the Dove, Season 3, 2268. The Bid of Prey makes its first appearance in The Search for Spock set in 2285. The K'tinga in The Motion Picture, set in 2271. So then they went from the D7 to the K'tinga, a closely related (appearance wise) ship within 3 years, this MIGHT indicate the ability to rebuild a Fleet quickly but the fact that the D7 type isn't scrapped doesn't seem like it to me. Onto TNG where the first time we see a Klingon Ship is A Matter of Honor, Season 2, 2365, it is the Bird of Prey, likely upgraded but definatly a Bird of Prey. The Vor'cha doesn't appear on screen until Reunion, Season 4, set in 2367.

So, we are left with the Bird of Prey, likely refitted/new models being around for 80 years (using earliest date to earliest date), not what I would call totally new. The Vor'cha, the first truly new ship to TNG comes a full 96 years after the first on screen appearance of the K'tinga, the role it has likely taken over.

As to DS9, we have no evidence that this Fleet didn't exist before so I'm not sure what your point is, we just haven't seen any large ships assembled before.

All in all their build times don't look especially impressive.

$100 rock you're a quick one, mommy must be proud. HAHAHAHAHA, no really that's just so darn cute. We needed more children in the forum, though now I feel old.

Petty insults in place of Cannon Evidence, I appreciate that.

Post by **Teaos** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:53 am

Petty insults in place of Cannon Evidence, I appreciate that.

Its what people do when they dont have a proper come back. You should be pleased.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:13 am

KuvahMagh wrote:
Onto TNG where the first time we see a Klingon Ship is A Matter of Honor, Season 2, 2365, it is the Bird of Prey, likely upgraded but definatly a Bird of Prey..

isn't our first view of a klingon ship, the k'tinga, in season 1 ''heart of glory''?

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:46 am

isn't our first view of a klingon ship, the k'tinga, in season 1 ''heart of glory''?

True, I haven't watched TNG S1 since I was a kid so I forgot about that. Even so it is more proof in my corner though since Deepcrush's exact words were;

TOS to TNG, totally new ships

I have have shown, with the help of others here that this is blatantly false, the Bird of Prey first seen in TSFS is still around into the Dominion War with no replacement ever so much as being mentioned. The D7/K'tinga class is still in use through the Dominion War, although it appears to be augmented by the Vor'cha.

All of this, taken together helps show that the Klingon Empire while strong in numbers, takes a very long time to replace these designs with new ones, and has to bring obsolete ships out of mothballs to fight a War, regardless of effectiveness this still points to an inability to create a modern War Fleet made up of new vessels, but rather a reliance on overwhelming numbers of outdated ships.

Post by **Mikey** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:58 pm

You are right in saying that the illustrated service life of the D-7 type is ridiculously long - see Graham's article to that effect. However, "Heart of Glory" is a bad example - wasn't that a sleeper ship or something?

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:01 pm

no its a good example, it was k'neras' ship, the klingon vessel sent to reclaim the rebels, we're not talking about the episode with the T'ong or whatever it was,featuring worfs' bird

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:14 pm

You are right in saying that the illustrated service life of the D-7 type is ridiculously long - see Graham's article to that effect. However, "Heart of Glory" is a bad example - wasn't that a sleeper ship or something?

My point is that he says the Klingons could easily rebuild, when asked for evidence he provided;

As to when have they rebuilt? From Ent to TOS, totally different ships. TOS to TNG, totally new ships. TNG to DS9, very big fleet with only a few of the old boys still around.

I then showed though actual dating that this is either; not difficult since such an amount of time passes that a new set of designs is not only likely but the only reasonable course of action., or quite untrue since designs like the BoP appeared to continue almost 90 years later as mainstays of the Fleet while the D7/K'tinga remained as an operational unit for close to 100 years before their role was outsourced.