What if? II

[Mikey]

Assuming the Dominion would find the wormhole and eventually attack, the Klingons and Romulans would probably be in worse shape than during the "actual" Dominion War. Remember, it was the influence of the Federation - which has been conquered in our scenario - which brought the Romulans from neutrality to becoming a part of the alliance. The alliance of convenience from our scenario would certainly have collapsed with the defeat of the UFP, if not earlier.

[Deepcrush]

I do agree with the consensus here but I am wondering how far the K/R victory would go. The federation was willing to surrender but I doubt that every world would comply. I would see humans continue fighting despite the losses. Lets face it, on earth we have fought wars that have erased whole nations, races and left whole plots of land dead for hundreds if not thousands of years. Tomorrow, we'll just start fighting somewhere else. Most of the Starfleet is human so if the UFP surrenders I would expect the fleet to race back home to Sol Sector and hold up there. If anyone wants to pay the price needed to wipe out the whole fleet in just one sector then so be it but I doubt it as the Romulans wouldn't be willing to pay such costs for one sector and the Klingons would be busy eating up all of the easy pickings targets they could find. Sol would become a fortress system.

[Captain Seafort]

I rather think it would be the fall of the Terran System that would trigger a surrender. It's the political, military and industrial heart of the Federation - with it they can continue fighting even if it's a island amid a hostile sea. Without it they're finished.

As to humans fighting on, the degree of pacifism demonstrated by Trek humans, even in the militay, makes me doubt that considerably.

[Mikey]

Very true. While some factions might continue to fight guerilla campaigns, these would be ancillary at best.

[Deepcrush]

That pacifism comes from safety, when that is gone then the old style human love of war will return. Remember what quark told nog about the humans! Even in ST humans who are normally peaceful can turn violent due to the need arising. Look at what bashir said about a new federation or when the people (forget the planet but its when picard gave his "We have no law for the crimes you have commited" speech to the Q like guy who killed off the entire race that killed his wife.) of whatever world stood and fought knowing that they would lose. Humans have shown time and again that just because we can't win a war doesn't mean we won't fight.

[Sionnach Glic]

Whether or not factions of the Federation would continue to fight is mostly irrelevant. Without any clear leadership, or guiding strategy, they'd quickly be contained and wiped out one by one. By the time the general population starts realising that they're going to have to fight for themselves if they want to win, it'll be far too late to make any effective impact on the war. Once Earth falls, the Federation falls.
It's like a frickin' game of Jenga...

[Deepcrush]

But I still don't see Earth falling as easily as some others here may think. Many worlds in the UFP have suffered, earth included. But, if the remainder of the fleet fell back to earth the hold up for a last stand then I think whoever comes in looking for them may regret doing so. The nazis would have had more of a chance at the outset of 1944 if they had right then and there pulled back to Germany and fortified their borders. They were over stretched and by shorting their lines would have faired far better. The odds of the K/R vs the UFP are not anywhere near as stacked as WWII which makes the point even more relevant.

[Sionnach Glic]

But I still don't see Earth falling as easily as some others here may think.

I never said Earth would be an easy battle, just that it would eventualy fall.

But, if the remainder of the fleet fell back to earth the hold up for a last stand then I think whoever comes in looking for them may regret doing so. The nazis would have had more of a chance at the outset of 1944 if they had right then and there pulled back to Germany and fortified their borders.

Actualy, its more like if the entire Werhmarcht retreated straight back to Berlin. Could they have held the capital for a long time? Yep. Could they have inflicted hideous losses on the Allies? Yep. Could they have won the war? Nope.
If Starfleet pulls back to Earth, it effectively abandons its outer assets. Any Starbases, shipyards, ans planets away from Earth would be completely overrun. Any ship too slow to make it back to Earth would be anhialated. The Feds could make taking Earth into one hell of a battle, but with little resources, a small pool of people to recruit new troops from, with virtualy no way to supply their forces, and with the Klingons and Romulans now able to build hundreds of ships in the time it takes for one Fed ship to be built, they'd be utterly screwed.

[Deepcrush]

Well most of the fleet is built in Sol system for one. Second I don't see many shipyards outside of Sol doing to much good. Third, that small pool is 9 billion people. Thats a good number of people to call on for war. Would they win the war? HELL to the NO! But it would make for a very costly battle and quite meaningless to whoever has the force to beat them. The battle would leave the K/R forces in pretty bad shape. The romulans most likely wouldn't even bother with it, its not cost effective. The Klingons might but would be so busy taking everything else apart that it wouldn't really be worth the time as they would have to pull in a large part if not the whole of their fleet to the fight. Oh and those other systems and worlds who don't really do much at all for Starfleet other then cause trouble, well they can just rot and fend for themselves. Earth and Vulcan have been paying out the tailpipe for the UFP and its time the other worlds learn what its like. Every Fed ship with a human crew should pull back to Sol and hold up there. Let the ship yards turn out as many ships as they want and let the Klingons and Romulans batter themselves against the rest of the AQ. I think that its fair to say that most fed ships come from Mars, Jupiter, U.P. San Fran, Mckennly just to name the ones I know of in Sol system (I think, no I'm pretty sure I mispelled that last one). As to resources, I've never heard of any trouble with reasources in Sol. In fact I thought that I had heard a great deal of talk about the value of the Sol System Belt. Seems to me that a hold up would work very well for Earth.

"Sure you can attack us but we have enough guns here that most of you won't be leaving alive!"

[Sionnach Glic]

Well most of the fleet is built in Sol system for one.

Quite true, and these would no doubt be priority targets for any preliminary assaults by the K/R forces.

Second I don't see many shipyards outside of Sol doing to much good.

Well, if they exist they would be quite helpfull. It's quite stupid to keep all of your construction facilities in one system, no matter how well defended.

Third, that small pool is 9 billion people. Thats a good number of people to call on for war.

Not when you're comparing them to two empires, each with probably hundreds, if not thousands, of planets it isn't.

But it would make for a very costly battle and quite meaningless to whoever has the force to beat them.

Toppling your enemy in one battle? I'd say that's rather meaningfull, no matter the cost.

The battle would leave the K/R forces in pretty bad shape.

Only the forces commited, which need be only a fraction of the overall fleet. By the time the Feds retreat to Earth, Starfleet would most likely be down to a skeleton force. The Alliance could quite easily send in only a quarter of their total force, and still outnumber them, most likely.

The romulans most likely wouldn't even bother with it, its not cost effective.

Destroying one of the major threats to the continuity of your empire, and making major territorial and resource gains in the progress? That's pretty damn cost effective, in my view.

The Klingons might but would be so busy taking everything else apart that it wouldn't really be worth the time as they would have to pull in a large part if not the whole of their fleet to the fight.

The Klingons may just be Vikings with spaceships, but they're still tacticaly quite smart. They'd recognise the importance of a strike against the Federation's capital, and commit forces accodingly.

Oh and those other systems and worlds who don't really do much at all for Starfleet other then cause trouble, well they can just rot and fend for themselves.

And that is a perfect example of poor tactical thinking. What about the resources they contribute? What about the manpower they have? What about construction facilities they have, either in space or on the surface? What about the financial wealth they contribute? What about strategic locations they may occupy? What about the fact that they are part of the UFP? If the US was being invaded, would you suggest that individual states fend for themselves, and abandon them to their fate?
These systems may not be militarily great, but to suggest you can abandon them and simply expect things to turn out fine is rather narrow minded.
And lets not forget the morale damage this would cause. What if some captain from planet Crapholia is told that Starfleet is abandoning his planet, and the homeworlds of most of his crew? Do you really think many captains would follow such an order?

Let the ship yards turn out as many ships as they want and let the Klingons and Romulans batter themselves against the rest of the AQ.

Correction:
Let the shipyards turn out as many ships as they can without resources and manpower supplies running out, and let the Klingons and Romulans steamroll the now defenceless Federation colonies, who would be queing up to defect to the Alliance for protection.

I think that its fair to say that most fed ships come from Mars, Jupiter, U.P. San Fran, Mckennly just to name the ones I know of in Sol system (I think, no I'm pretty sure I mispelled that last one).

So? The ships may come from there, but that doesn't mean any captain with a sense of moral values would abandon Federation worlds, simply because the commanders felt these worlds hadn't pulled their weight previously. Can you seriously imagine Picard following such an order? Sisko? Kirk? Janeway? Riker? There'd be mass mutiny among the fleet, and Federation colonies would be defecting by the dozen in minutes.

As to resources, I've never heard of any trouble with reasources in Sol.

Sol can hardly supply a large force of ships, and hold enough supplies while the sytem is under siege. Earth is very unlikely to be completely self-sufficient, particularly under these circumstances.

In fact I thought that I had heard a great deal of talk about the value of the Sol System Belt. Seems to me that a hold up would work very well for Earth.

So? How quickly can they mine and refine this? How quickly can this be made into a new starship? Can Earth's economy even survive when they lose all trading partners they have? Having natural wealth, doesn't mean it's always going to come in handy.

"Sure you can attack us but we have enough guns here that most of you won't be leaving alive!"

Then Earth will simply be besieged, and worn down bit by bit.
"The greatest victories, are those that require no combat." - Sun Tzu.
(well, it was something to that effect.)

[Sionnach Glic]

Well most of the fleet is built in Sol system for one.

Quite true, and these would no doubt be priority targets for any preliminary assaults by the K/R forces.

Second I don't see many shipyards outside of Sol doing to much good.

Well, if they exist they would be quite helpfull. It's quite stupid to keep all of your construction facilities in one system, no matter how well defended.

Third, that small pool is 9 billion people. Thats a good number of people to call on for war.

Not when you're comparing them to two empires, each with probably hundreds, if not thousands, of planets it isn't.

But it would make for a very costly battle and quite meaningless to whoever has the force to beat them.

Toppling your enemy in one battle? I'd say that's rather meaningfull, no matter the cost.

The battle would leave the K/R forces in pretty bad shape.

Only the forces commited, which need be only a fraction of the overall fleet. By the time the Feds retreat to Earth, Starfleet would most likely be down to a skeleton force. The Alliance could quite easily send in only a quarter of their total force, and still outnumber them, most likely.

The romulans most likely wouldn't even bother with it, its not cost effective.

Destroying one of the major threats to the continuity of your empire, and making major territorial and resource gains in the progress? That's pretty damn cost effective, in my view.

The Klingons might but would be so busy taking everything else apart that it wouldn't really be worth the time as they would have to pull in a large part if not the whole of their fleet to the fight.

The Klingons may just be Vikings with spaceships, but they're still tacticaly quite smart. They'd recognise the importance of a strike against the Federation's capital, and commit forces accodingly.

Oh and those other systems and worlds who don't really do much at all for Starfleet other then cause trouble, well they can just rot and fend for themselves.

And that is a perfect example of poor tactical thinking. What about the resources they contribute? What about the manpower they have? What about construction facilities they have, either in space or on the surface? What about the financial wealth they contribute? What about strategic locations they may occupy? What about the fact that they are part of the UFP? If the US was being invaded, would you suggest that individual states fend for themselves, and abandon them to their fate?
These systems may not be militarily great, but to suggest you can abandon them and simply expect things to turn out fine is rather narrow minded.
And lets not forget the morale damage this would cause. What if some captain from planet Crapholia is told that Starfleet is abandoning his planet, and the homeworlds of most of his crew? Do you really think many captains would follow such an order?

Let the ship yards turn out as many ships as they want and let the Klingons and Romulans batter themselves against the rest of the AQ.

Correction:
Let the shipyards turn out as many ships as they can without resources and manpower supplies running out, and let the Klingons and Romulans steamroll the now defenceless Federation colonies, who would be queing up to defect to the Alliance for protection.

I think that its fair to say that most fed ships come from Mars, Jupiter, U.P. San Fran, Mckennly just to name the ones I know of in Sol system (I think, no I'm pretty sure I mispelled that last one).

So? The ships may come from there, but that doesn't mean any captain with a sense of moral values would abandon Federation worlds, simply because the commanders felt these worlds hadn't pulled their weight previously. Can you seriously imagine Picard following such an order? Sisko? Kirk? Janeway? Riker? There'd be mass mutiny among the fleet, and Federation colonies would be defecting by the dozen in minutes.

As to resources, I've never heard of any trouble with reasources in Sol.

Sol can hardly supply a large force of ships, and hold enough supplies while the sytem is under siege. Earth is very unlikely to be completely self-sufficient, particularly under these circumstances.

In fact I thought that I had heard a great deal of talk about the value of the Sol System Belt. Seems to me that a hold up would work very well for Earth.

So? How quickly can they mine and refine this? How quickly can this be made into a new starship? Can Earth's economy even survive when they lose all trading partners they have? Having natural wealth, doesn't mean it's always going to come in handy.

"Sure you can attack us but we have enough guns here that most of you won't be leaving alive!"

Then Earth will simply be besieged, and worn down bit by bit.
"The greatest victories, are those that require no combat." - Sun Tzu.
(well, it was something to that effect.)

[Teaos]

While earth maybe not be easy to conquer it wouldn't be that hard to nutralise. Once all space born defences are gone you can blow up the industrial capability and the planet is then useless in the war effort.

[Deepcrush]

I wouldn't tell the US to abandon states but i would leave behind all those useless nations that wait for US troops to fight and die for them. In war time trade takes a back seat. It sucks but so be it. If those other worlds side with the K/R forces then good for them, they'll live. As to the Roms, they've shown that they would prefer to aviod direct combat with an enemies home world, or fleet in general. The klingons wouldn't be able to out number the whole of starfleet just because they won the war. By the end of the war starfleet was still counting victories under its belt. Starfleet was building starships without trade to begin with so why not now. Holding up and drawing your enemy into a battle on your home terf is a sound plan, force them to come to you and face them with everything you have left. If you are going to lose then make them pay for every bit of space they get out of it.

[Captain Seafort]

You're mistaking the human race's home turf for the Federation's home turf - the US equivalent of falling back to the Terran system would be to form a perimetre around DC. You're abandoning thousands of worlds, with all their resources, to the enemy.

[Deepcrush]

No, that would be the US leaving, japan, korea, england, germany, italy, brazil, P.rico, africa, australia, okinowa, iraq, israel, saudi arabia, and what ever else i've missed. It would be the US pulling back to the US. 5 million troops and less then half a million are here at home. 12 fleet groups plus odd task groups around the world pulled home. Would they care about being told to come home. NO!