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Riker having the powers of Q and the Klingon civil war have nothing to do with due process being turfed out the window and everybody nodding along. S31 you could argue, but they're of rather nebulous legality anyway, and it's hardly the case that everyone goes along with them - that we know of, at best there are a handful of people that turn a blind eye.

Riker and the Klingon Civil War are directly tied to the current UFP view on the PD. Which it has, in dozens of cases that we've seen just involving the Ent-D, used as little more then an excuse for washing their hands of thousands to millions of people deaths that they could have prevented. From a single little girl who Riker held in his arms, to the forced labor camps of Bajor.

The Prime Directive is nothing to do with the Drumhead.

Deepcrush wrote: The fact is that the UFP commonly commits the very crimes that it protests. Commonly supports the actions they declare themselves above. Lastly, the UFP will most often ignore such issues publicly and the only common means to force the UFP to face the matter relies on mutiny.

Well the UFP IS modeled after the USA after all!

Atekimogus wrote:

Deepcrush wrote: The fact is that the UFP commonly commits the very crimes that it protests. Commonly supports the actions they declare themselves above. Lastly, the UFP will most often ignore such issues publicly and the only common means to force the UFP to face the matter relies on mutiny.

Well the UFP IS modeled after the USA after all!

GrahamKennedy wrote:The Prime Directive is nothing to do with the Drumhead.

As the PD is not only central to the view of the UFP but is in fact discussed in Drumhead... It there for has a great deal of involvement with the episode. Plus, the PD was mentioned as counter to your statement that the UFP can't do all the things we've seen it do time after time.

Atekimogus wrote:

Deepcrush wrote: The fact is that the UFP commonly commits the very crimes that it protests. Commonly supports the actions they declare themselves above. Lastly, the UFP will most often ignore such issues publicly and the only common means to force the UFP to face the matter relies on mutiny.

Well the UFP IS modeled after the USA after all!

In ToS maybe, but not TNG.

Deepcrush wrote:

Atekimogus wrote:

Deepcrush wrote: The fact is that the UFP commonly commits the very crimes that it protests. Commonly supports the actions they declare themselves above. Lastly, the UFP will most often ignore such issues publicly and the only common means to force the UFP to face the matter relies on mutiny.

Well the UFP IS modeled after the USA after all!

In ToS maybe, but not TNG.

Lighten up, it was meant as a semi-serious joke. However if you need to go by the letter and not the intention allow me to paraphrase it:


"Well, it sounds a lot like present USA then !"

Deepcrush wrote:

GrahamKennedy wrote:The Prime Directive is nothing to do with the Drumhead.

As the PD is not only central to the view of the UFP but is in fact discussed in Drumhead... It there for has a great deal of involvement with the episode.

It's mentioned, as a way to attack Picard, but it's got nothing to do with what I said - that holding hearings like this is against the nature of the Federation. The Prime Directive is in the category of foreign policy, it's nothing to do with how the Federation or Starfleet operate their own internal legalities.

That's what bothered me about this episode - TNG was the Federation at it's liberal/commie peak, and then all of a sudden this woman is going all McCarthy on everyone, and everybody just goes along at first. It's the out of the blue aspect... there's nothing to "sell" the idea that this could happen.

Now if this episode happened in DS9, at the height of the Changeling infiltration scares, that would be a whole different matter. DS9 did stories like the Drumhead, showing Starfleeters like Admiral Leyton doing things even worse than Satie did. But it worked there because there was a broader context for it, a reason why people would go along with it all. It's still okay as episodes go, just not a great one IMO.

GrahamKennedy wrote: TNG was the Federation at it's liberal/commie peak

Well you can either be liberal or communist but not both. Surely you meant liberal/socialist.

Sure they have not the ressource problems of today etc. but only because they eliminated poverty, starvation, provide health care for everyone etc etc. doesn't make them communist. There still is private property, private enterprises and I belive at the time of the Sarty episode they haven't yet "invented" the nonsensical "no money" sentiment.

(I know I am nitpicking but communism and socialism are not the same thing altough one is often used for the other nowadasy and I find it disturbing that often when someone is suggesting social reforms he/she is called communist)

Atekimogus wrote:Well you can either be liberal or communist but not both. Surely you meant liberal/socialist.

Hey, anything that's not on the far right is all one giant conglomeration of liberalism, socialism, communism, marxism, stalinism... I know it's true, Fox News said so!

In reality (odd word in this context) there's probably no current term that would describe the Federation, their technology and the whole "evolution of humanity" has changed the map too much. But yeah, not strictly either of those things. But the point is, this was the time when we got the most preaching about how wonderful everything was in the Federation, how everybody respected everybody and everything else, how all problems had been solved through some nebulous process of everybody just deciding to be reasonable about it, blah blah blah. It seemed to me that it was a bit out of left field that a good chunk of that would just be suddenly disregarded because Satie had a chip on her shoulder.

GrahamKennedy wrote:That's what bothered me about this episode - TNG was the Federation at it's liberal/commie peak, and then all of a sudden this woman is going all McCarthy on everyone, and everybody just goes along at first. It's the out of the blue aspect... there's nothing to "sell" the idea that this could happen.

As much as I agree with your take on this topic, I don't think it needed to be "sold." Look at your own example - the Army-McCarthy hearings followed directly on the heels of what was perhaps the most left-leaning period in modern American history (the TVA, the institution of Social Security, etc.)