Species of the week: Androids

[kostmayer]

On the subject of Soong-type androids, was anyone else a little disappointed that we only got to see Data really kick ass in First Contact and Insurrection? Data vs. Jem'Hadar during the Dominion War would've been great to see.

I agree Data was pretty dangerous when he wanted to be (and often when he didn't). Not sure how wether or not he's vunerable to Borg Nanites, but he did do very well in hand to hand combat against them. I think Data and Worf could have taken out a fair few Borg in First Contact if left to it.

[Captain Seafort]

I agree Data was pretty dangerous when he wanted to be (and often when he didn't). Not sure how wether or not he's vunerable to Borg Nanites, but he did do very well in hand to hand combat against them. I think Data and Worf could have taken out a fair few Borg in First Contact if left to it.

Data was apparently too complicated a piece of equipment for the Borg to assimilate, hence the Queen resorting to quoting Tasha Yar to try and obtain the release codes for the main computer.

[Teaos]

As far as the transporter thread goes Blackstar we all agreed that your body got destroyed by it, the debate was about what defines a person. I thought it was the sum of their memories and experience and thus downloading it into a computer/android means you never die even if your original body does.

I suppose you're right there. Though could a sufficiently advanced system not have creativity (taking a step away from Trek, here)?

Thats a hard one. I would think that yes it could. You would just have to make a computer in exactly the same function as the Brain. The problem is that would be very hard since we dont know everything about the brain or if we could even achive some of it with computers.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Personally I don't see the problem with keeping organic bodies. For all it's advantages an android body has a major flaw. The possibility of a takeover! Loss of freewill. I'll take a barely usable organic body with freewill over an android body lacking freewill any day. Besides, living forever isn't all it's cracked up to be. After a while you'll eventually want to move on. Eventually you'll learn everything there is to know(hypothetically) about this universe and the only thing left to do is to move on. But how do androids die? Answer: you'll have to return to an organic body and wait to die anyway(just about every religion disapproves suicide except for occasional suffering/mercy ones)

[Teaos]

If an android got sick of life for some reason they could just destroy themselves heaps of ways. Phaser to the head or jump into a star of you wanna die having fun.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

but we have no idea how a person's 'soul', for a lack of a better word, would cross into the 'afterlife' while in an android body. Organic bodies on the other hand are sure to work(if such a thing does happen). That also brings up another question. In at least one situation I've heard it suggested that by artificially extending the time your soul spends here by using other bodies may a) make it more difficult to 'pass on' and b)may make it even more difficult to go to heaven. Although the how does depend on religion and whatnot, but the point is: we have no idea the consequences of artificially extending our soul's time in this realm will be.

[Teaos]

Well if you dont believe in a soul like many here dont thats a moot point.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Well if you dont believe in a soul like many here dont thats a moot point.

If you don't believe in a soul isn't life a moot point?

[Captain Peabody]

Actually, humans are still far superior to Soong-type androids; the only areas where they surpass us are all in attributes; things like strength or speed. We are incredibly well-designed creatures-- our bodies have been honed by millions of years of evolution, and by the work of God, into creatures of which the complexity of even one of the many systems that govern our existence is far beyond our understanding.

An android, however, is the creation of a single, flawed human being; someone who could not have thought of every contingency, or adapted his design to every possible danger. A single computer virus which it had not encountered before, a strange type of radiation unknown to it, and the entire race would simply die off. They'd be completely unable to cope; the only way for the race to survive would be to adapt to every new threat, something which they, by definition, would be incapable of. Humans, if struck by a strange type of radiation, or sickness, would no doubt die in huge numbers; but in the end, we'd develop immunites, and the race would survive. An android race, despite its longer lifespan, its speed, strength, processing power, would simply die off. End of experiment.

"For I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."

[Teaos]

Androids ar superior in almost everyway. Original though seems to be the only thing they lack at the moment.

We are incredibly well-designed creatures-- our bodies have been honed by millions of years of evolution,

Human design sucks. We have poor to average sight/smell/hearing/ESP compared to almost all other animals. We have a bunch of useless features such as a little toe and apendix which we no longer need, our bone structure is flawed and very prone to failure. We have weak immune systems comparitivly.

The only thing we have going for us is our brains and our thumbs.

[Thorin]

The only thing we have going for us is our brains and our thumbs.

The only thing we have going for us is our brains? That's like saying 'I lost a tenner, but at least we got a consolation of winning £10 million on the lottery'. Our brain isn't a consolation that doesn't make up for our poor senses, strength, and speed. It completely makes up for it.

[Mikey]

Thorin's right - we're slower, less stealthy, less dangerous (unarmed,) weaker, etc., than many animals in nature - yet we're still n top of the food chain, due to our brains.

In resposne to Blackstar: In one instance, you're concerned over the loss of free will in the case of an androis. I maintain that it's easier to subvert a human's free will. If someone kidnaps my wife or my daughter and holds a gun to their heads, I will do what I am told to do in order to save their lives, whether or not it is what I would normally choose to do. An android would be able to deactivate or ignore its emotions in order to maintain its freee will.

Regarding the following:

but we have no idea how a person's 'soul', for a lack of a better word, would cross into the 'afterlife' while in an android body. Organic bodies on the other hand are sure to work(if such a thing does happen). That also brings up another question. In at least one situation I've heard it suggested that by artificially extending the time your soul spends here by using other bodies may a) make it more difficult to 'pass on' and b)may make it even more difficult to go to heaven. Although the how does depend on religion and whatnot, but the point is: we have no idea the consequences of artificially extending our soul's time in this realm will be.

I don't have one of these "souls" about which people keep speaking, so extending my time among the living by any means, including artifical ones, has no effect on what happens to my when I do die, or the manner of that eventual death. I'm diabetic; my estimated lifespan is considerably shorter than average. If I get a transplant of porcine pancreatic cells, and it ends up helping me live to 103, then I've artificially extended my time on Earth; how exactly would that affect my entrance into any afterlife there may be?

[Sionnach Glic]

For all it's advantages an android body has a major flaw. The possibility of a takeover! Loss of freewill. I'll take a barely usable organic body with freewill over an android body lacking freewill any day.

And what's to stop a sufficiently advanced security system and design from preventing that?

Besides, living forever isn't all it's cracked up to be. After a while you'll eventually want to move on.

When you have personal experience with imortality, I'll take your word for it. As it is, I'm quite happy remaining here, and have no desire to 'move on'.

Eventually you'll learn everything there is to know(hypothetically) about this universe and the only thing left to do is to move on.

There is always something to strive for, and there will always be new things to experience and learn.

But how do androids die?

Through their destruction.

Answer: you'll have to return to an organic body and wait to die anyway(just about every religion disapproves suicide except for occasional suffering/mercy ones)

I'm an atheist, so if I ever had the desire to die, I'd have no problems with suicide (not that I'd ever consider it).

but we have no idea how a person's 'soul', for a lack of a better word, would cross into the 'afterlife' while in an android body.

I don't believe in a soul, and I certainly don't believe in an afterlife.

If you don't believe in a soul isn't life a moot point?

Actualy, its exactly the opposite. For someone like myself, who doesn't believe in an afterlife, life is the one chance we get, our one go at existance, and we only have one chance to really experience life. After all, when we die, that's it. Nothing. Complete and total void and oblivion.
For me, it makes life even more worth living.

Actually, humans are still far superior to Soong-type androids; the only areas where they surpass us are all in attributes; things like strength or speed.

Don't forget endurance, longevity, inteligence (debatable for the Soongs, but with a properly designed one it could be), reflexes, observation, etc.

Androids: 1 Humans: 0

our bodies have been honed by millions of years of evolution,

And how does this make them superior to androids, which can be 'evolved' in a matter of hours, with something as simple as replacing a few parts? And, as Teaos said, the human body pretty much sucks in comparison to other creatures. We're have greater inteligence, but at the cost of physical ability.

Androids: 2 Humans: 0

An android, however, is the creation of a single, flawed human being;

Why flawed? Is the person who made the first automated assembly line flawed? Is the person who created the PC flawed? Is the person who created the internet flawed?

someone who could not have thought of every contingency, or adapted his design to every possible danger.

By their very nature, a machine could adapt much quicker to any given threat than a human. And they could have multiple backup systems and redundancies, which humans do not. Another point for the androids.

A single computer virus which it had not encountered before, a strange type of radiation unknown to it, and the entire race would simply die off.

Why could they not adapt to it? These things don't jump to every member of the race in seconds, it would take months for something like that to take affect. With proper firewalls, and defences there would be little threat from virii, particularly if it was kept constantly updated. And machines are far more resistant to radiation than organic creatures, and would be far more able to adapt to radiation.

Humans, if struck by a strange type of radiation, or sickness, would no doubt die in huge numbers; but in the end, we'd develop immunites, and the race would survive.

Yeah, like those people in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Chernobyl developed imunities to the radiation.
Oh, wait....

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I loved Data's exploration of what it meant to be human. 'The CHild' is one of my favorite episodes of all time and it still tears me up when Lal dies.

I think Data can be creative, myself. He draws upon his knowledge, just like humans, to do the things he does.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

And what's to stop a sufficiently advanced security system and design from preventing that?

If you create better security someone will create a better virus.

When you have personal experience with immortality, I'll take your word for it. As it is, I'm quite happy remaining here, and have no desire to 'move on'.

Even if you remain here, eventually everything will end. That is one unchangeable fact of life. Everything has a beginning and an end. Anything that doesn't is unreal. And nothing unreal exists.

I don't believe in a soul, and I certainly don't believe in an afterlife.

Then why are you here?

Why flawed? Is the person who made the first automated assembly line flawed? Is the person who created the PC flawed? Is the person who created the Internet flawed?

As a matter of fact yes. Just because they improved something doesn't make them perfect.

Yeah, like those people in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Chernobyl developed immunities to the radiation.
Oh, wait....

It takes much longer then a single generation. It could be a hundred years before true immunity appears, probably longer. If the 6 billion humans were all hit with a large dose of lethal radiation, and there were only 1% that could develop an immunity and only 1% do survive and develop an immunity that's still 600,000 people left alive. Since androids would be uniform in construction there is a much greater risk of all the androids being deactivated by the same thing. There is much greater strength in diversity. The United States is the greatest example of this. Despite all it's problems it is the strongest government in terms of money and pure strength.